"
鬼殺し wrote:
It's a VERY obvious situation. How could a character geared and tuned to defeat endless swarms of mooks, champions and god-like bosses ever be balanced for a fight against another character of that nature? It's a ridiculous level of repurposing, which is why games like Guild Wars did the smart thing and kept them separate for the most part. And when they couldn't, they intensively rebalanced skills to have PvE and PvP versions. It didn't hurt that gear in GW was almost a secondary factor, given you had max stat gear thrown at you and it all came down to skill combinations and teamwork.
But then we can argue, but D2's pvp wasn't balanced and it was fun. Was it though? Or was it all we had at the time? I feel a lot of our enjoyment of D2, a LOT, was lemonade from lemons. Which sort of brings us back to where PoE is at its weakest: when it's trying to mimic that lemonade forgetting the main reason it was popular was that nowhere else was selling lemons at the time, never mind lemonade.
D2 PvP was shit lets be honest. The only D2 PvP I enjoyed was working on fine tuning PI dopplezons in open bnet, for the same reason I find this type of game still useful for a PvP scenario.
"
鬼殺し wrote:
This might sound fatalistic but I honestly think PoE will never, ever be sufficiently balanced as long as players are given all the tools they need to be optimal for a three month league in a matter of hours. Still, good luck unfucking that poodle.
Agreed.
|
Posted bytheD4nk0wl#1273on Feb 6, 2019, 9:39:55 PM
|
"
Fruz wrote:
If you don't understand how the current building system isn't fit to have player fight in 1v1, I strongly suggest you check the skill tree gain, the different keystones and all the immunities that invalidate a drastic majority of the builds in PvP.
wait, WHAT?
you sorta had a point about the balance, but it sure isn't THAT.
the immunities/etc are known and no one should be making a pvp char based on only one damage type if it can be immunized. ie: chaos/ci. most immunities are just to secondary/ailments, anyway.
but there is a weapon swap key and room in the inventory for gems...
1v1 is generally all about adapting, anyway. at least, at high levels (skill, not clvl). when dueling, i was making alll kinds of adjustments in between rounds.
that said, (forced) 2v2, ctf, and 3v3 were far more fun, imo
edit: d2 pvp was super fun. and the pvp community pretty much policed/balanced themselves.
but even outside of that, it was still fun. plus, you could just go hostile... without the help of alira.
[Removed by Support]
"Your forum signature was removed as it was considered to be inappropriate and a breach of our Code of Conduct."
...it was quotes. from the forum. lolz! Last edited by robmafia#7456 on Feb 6, 2019, 10:03:52 PM
|
Posted byrobmafia#7456on Feb 6, 2019, 10:01:33 PM
|
"
robmafia wrote:
"
Fruz wrote:
If you don't understand how the current building system isn't fit to have player fight in 1v1, I strongly suggest you check the skill tree gain, the different keystones and all the immunities that invalidate a drastic majority of the builds in PvP.
wait, WHAT?
you sorta had a point about the balance, but it sure isn't THAT.
the immunities/etc are known and no one should be making a pvp char based on only one damage type if it can be immunized. ie: chaos/ci. most immunities are just to secondary/ailments, anyway.
NO SHIT !?
You just pointed at the obvious here, how PvP could never be a 'proper' thing in PoE since a drastic majority of potential builds are invalidated from the very start.
Let people have fun with this broken joke ?
Sure, why not.
But waste dev time trying to 'balance' this crap ? holy hell no ... ( an insignificant amount of time spent to tweak couple of numbers though ? I guess why not if some people are happy with it ).
"
robmafia wrote:
that said, (forced) 2v2, ctf, and 3v3 were far more fun, imo
That would make a bit more sense, but the same point still applies.
@theD4nk0wl : I think you should stop waffling, seriously.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Feb 6, 2019, 10:15:21 PM
|
Posted byFruz#6137on Feb 6, 2019, 10:12:35 PM
|
"
Fruz wrote:
"
robmafia wrote:
"
Fruz wrote:
If you don't understand how the current building system isn't fit to have player fight in 1v1, I strongly suggest you check the skill tree gain, the different keystones and all the immunities that invalidate a drastic majority of the builds in PvP.
wait, WHAT?
you sorta had a point about the balance, but it sure isn't THAT.
the immunities/etc are known and no one should be making a pvp char based on only one damage type if it can be immunized. ie: chaos/ci. most immunities are just to secondary/ailments, anyway.
NO SHIT !?
You just pointed at the obvious here, how PvP could never be a 'proper' thing in PoE since a drastic majority of potential builds are invalidated from the very start.
WAT
read that again. you clearly misread.
edit: additionally, the current pvp balance is more/less a worst-case scenario. ggg clearly put about 15 minutes into balancing it over the last 3 years or so. it's not how it should be, obv.
[Removed by Support]
"Your forum signature was removed as it was considered to be inappropriate and a breach of our Code of Conduct."
...it was quotes. from the forum. lolz! Last edited by robmafia#7456 on Feb 6, 2019, 10:24:01 PM
|
Posted byrobmafia#7456on Feb 6, 2019, 10:17:09 PM
|
Maybe you don't have any experience of proper, good PvP games then ?
I guess then, whatever, it isn't the topic anyway.
"
robmafia wrote:
edit: additionally, the current pvp balance is more/less a worst-case scenario. ggg clearly put about 15 minutes into balancing it over the last 3 years or so. it's not how it should be, obv.
It IS how it should be, because PoE isn't FIT for it FFS.
It's really not hard to understand and I explained you why.
But again, you might have very little experience of actual PvP games if any for all I know, if you don't understand that, so whatever.
If I want to play against other players, I play other games, not PoE. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Feb 6, 2019, 10:25:52 PM
|
Posted byFruz#6137on Feb 6, 2019, 10:24:13 PM
|
|
Why are master missions after topping out (T15/T16) drop back down to T1 or 2 an start over this is STUPID last thing I want to do while Iam trying to level! STOP holding us back its insulting!
|
Posted byFasteddie1#2721on Feb 6, 2019, 10:36:45 PM
|
"
Fasteddie1 wrote:
Why are master missions after topping out (T15/T16) drop back down to T1 or 2 an start over this is STUPID last thing I want to do while Iam trying to level! STOP holding us back its insulting!
They don't ? or is it a bug ?
Afaik, after the reset, masters will spawn around the tier of the last map you ran.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
|
Posted byFruz#6137on Feb 6, 2019, 10:41:37 PM
|
|
you misreading means that i don't have proper pvp experience?
...yeah. sure.
[Removed by Support]
"Your forum signature was removed as it was considered to be inappropriate and a breach of our Code of Conduct."
...it was quotes. from the forum. lolz!
|
Posted byrobmafia#7456on Feb 6, 2019, 11:23:32 PM
|
"
robmafia wrote:
you misreading means that i don't have proper pvp experience?
I was merely implying that you simply did not get it.
I'm not interested into going into another "no you !" battle that 'conversations' with you turn into, so I won't feed you this time.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
|
Posted byFruz#6137on Feb 6, 2019, 11:32:05 PM
|
"
Fruz wrote:
"
Khalixxa wrote:
If balance considerations are made on behalf of PvP, they almost always benefit the the PvE aspects of the game as well.
How ?
balance tweaks so that people don't one-shot themselves in PvP have absolutely no impact on PoE's main game, if anything it's wasted time imo.
For obvious balance reason, PoE's PvP will never ever ever ever ever ever ever be 'proper', 'fair', 'balanced', however you can call it.
Poe has never been designed around PvP to begin with, the balance tweaks that allow PvP are nothing more than band-aids so that PvP can be somewhat of a thing for the very few people who like it in PoE.
Oh, I didn't mean the "bandaid" type of balance consideration you're thinking of (like the 90% damage reduction from D2 PvP); I meant throwing PvP and PvE balance considerations into the same pool, solving their problems together so that we don't need the bandaids.
Most of the balance issues with PVE have some pretty non-coincidental overlap with the PvP balance issues.
I'm not saying that POE should be designed around PvP; I'm just pointing out the parallels between PvP and PvE imbalances that could enlighten development decisions in the future.
"
鬼殺し wrote:
It's a VERY obvious situation. How could a character geared and tuned to defeat endless swarms of mooks, champions and god-like bosses ever be balanced for a fight against another character of that nature? It's a ridiculous level of repurposing, which is why games like Guild Wars did the smart thing and kept them separate for the most part. And when they couldn't, they intensively rebalanced skills to have PvE and PvP versions. It didn't hurt that gear in GW was almost a secondary factor, given you had max stat gear thrown at you and it all came down to skill combinations and teamwork.
When there are "bandaid" balances put on PvP (such as differences in skill function, damage scaling, healing debuffs, etc) it usually highlights problems with PvE such to make the bandaid necessary.
PvP should be thought of as a case study for PvE from a design standpoint. If bandaids are needed... why are they needed? They just allow problems in PvE and PvP to diverge independently when they could be tools for balancing one another.
"
鬼殺し wrote:
But then we can argue, but D2's pvp wasn't balanced and it was fun. Was it though? Or was it all we had at the time? I feel a lot of our enjoyment of D2, a LOT, was lemonade from lemons. Which sort of brings us back to where PoE is at its weakest: when it's trying to mimic that lemonade forgetting the main reason it was popular was that nowhere else was selling lemons at the time, never mind lemonade.
The ONLY PvP I ever enjoyed in PoE was cut-throat (and I imagine the BR April's Fool Joke wasn't too different) because the main balancing factor was luck. A lucky drop and you were on your way. Naturally skill choice and gear optimisation even at that low level was important but Cut-throat embraced the core of what a game like PoE should be: a shared experience of the intense highs and lows when you're at the mercy of the dice.
I genuinely think this is why GGG even came up with the league idea. They knew that once your character reached a certain threshold of tuning, of optimal gear, it would get boring. Moreover, they knew it'd be a bitch to balance for that.
We went from short term leagues (30min-4 hour 'races') to much longer ones (3 month 'expansions'), but I can guarantee I know which of the two TencentGGG would rather be running. If they had to choose. Which, right now, it seems they think they did.
This might sound fatalistic but I honestly think PoE will never, ever be sufficiently balanced as long as players are given all the tools they need to be optimal for a three month league in a matter of hours. Still, good luck unfucking that poodle.
The lemonade analogy is perfect.
We should be more sensitive to the taste of it by now.
Last edited by Khalixxa#0534 on Feb 7, 2019, 1:27:38 AM
|
Posted byKhalixxa#0534on Feb 7, 2019, 1:19:56 AM
|
