Path of Exile, Gameplay Criticism

"

Khalixxa wrote:

Oh, I didn't mean the "bandaid" type of balance consideration you're thinking of (like the 90% damage reduction from D2 PvP); I meant throwing PvP and PvE balance considerations into the same pool, solving their problems together so that we don't need the bandaids.

Most of the balance issues with PVE have some pretty non-coincidental overlap with the PvP balance issues.

I'm not saying that POE should be designed around PvP; I'm just pointing out the parallels between PvP and PvE imbalances that could enlighten development decisions in the future.

You want a very different game then, not PoE.

An obvious majority of the playstyle in PvP here are just completely invalid, that is the main problem ( and it will always be ) with PvP in PoE and why it's horsecrap compared to PvP oriented games.

If you apply that to PvE as well ( by giving monsters the same immunity players can have for exampel ), you can say kiss any ignite/freeze/stun/chaos/bleed/poison goodbye, you can forget about many more synergy ( maim gem for example ), which would be absolutely terrible in a game that is mostly single player.
That would blatantly anihilate any remaining build diversity.

This 'problem' ( it would actually be one if PoE was aimed at doing PvP, which it isn't ) has absolutely nothing to do with PvE.


Path of Exile has NEVER been a game designed around PvP to begin with, any player with any significant PvP gaming experience will likely understand that very, very quickly.
Path of Exile is mostly a solo player oriented game ( trading aside of course ), and if you cannot rely on your teammate to counter a x-immune monster, you are better off not playing 'x' at all to begin with.


Avoiding all kind of immunities might end up making a great game, but unfortunately, that will not be PoE, Chaos immunity was already a thing at the very beginning of PoE ( can't tell about closed beta, but I believe that it was already there ).

"

Khalixxa wrote:

When there are "bandaid" balances put on PvP (such as differences in skill function, damage scaling, healing debuffs, etc) it usually highlights problems with PvE such to make the bandaid necessary.

Not it does not.

It would be like trying to train a pony to compete at horse racing, you can give him some horse racing equipement, take care of it as good as you can, it will never win, it will never be good enough, because horse racing is for horses.
And PoE is just not a PvP game, it's not its purpose, it's not how it has been designed and the balance is the blatant example of why.

Sure, GGG added couple of tweaks to allow PvP in it because ... why not if it does not cost them much ? It allows some people to have some fun with it, and it's completely fine.
But starting to mix PvE's balance from there ?
Fuck that, just. fuck. that.

we get it.

'if it's not a aaa-made moba, people no like pvp'

and yet, the april fool's joke was more fun than the entire pve game.

I don't know why I have to keep saying this, especially with @Fruz trying to discuss areas of the game he's clueless on, but..

Having to build around specific things is the PVE game as well, doing so with killing players in mind has been and can be an enjoyable experience. No part of this game is about skillful play, its about a build, trading/finding the correct items to continue that build, what that build can and cannot do.. But somehow people love the argument that goes something like:

"My (meme build) didn't do well in arena what horse shit is pvp? I can't even get to a fight to show off my mad skills!"

Which over time results in "Poe is just not a PvP game.."

I'd imagine anyone that plays PvP would not appreciate some idea to balance the game to NOT have those extra limitations that PvP has to work around.

They would appreciate a skill balance or two more often, thats for sure.

The issue isn't PvP has no place. The game play has as little skill interaction as PvE. It isn't non-existent, just a much smaller factor than the build itself.

I don't mean that people should come in hoards trying to build for PvP and that PvP is great. The issue is only a few get far enough to take the time to reconsider a build for PvP, and thats fine.

Getting as bad of a rep and as little balance attention as it has gotten however, and the "PVP SUCKS IT HAS NO PLACE IN OUR PVE GAME" stereotype is garbage.

It's a bit like that feeling when watching reality TV (if that is still a thing), thinking "OMG those people .... WOW, I'm so glad I'm not like them OO ..." right now, in this thread ..... YEP LOL.

Some posts are really golden hahaha

Pvp in an arpg..... /facepalm

lolz @ pve people complaining about pvp balance when they know nothing about it.

which they clearly do (know nothing about it), given how looney/false the complaints are.

edit: vicious circle, for additional lulz.

the best part is how popular/fun poe royale was. and hearing this from pve players who shit talk pvp and then say they want more royale.

btw, the royale balance was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy worse than pvp.

"

Fruz wrote:

You want a very different game then, not PoE.

An obvious majority of the playstyle in PvP here are just completely invalid, that is the main problem ( and it will always be ) with PvP in PoE and why it's horsecrap compared to PvP oriented games.

If you apply that to PvE as well ( by giving monsters the same immunity players can have for exampel ), you can say kiss any ignite/freeze/stun/chaos/bleed/poison goodbye, you can forget about many more synergy ( maim gem for example ), which would be absolutely terrible in a game that is mostly single player.
That would blatantly anihilate any remaining build diversity.

This 'problem' ( it would actually be one if PoE was aimed at doing PvP, which it isn't ) has absolutely nothing to do with PvE.

Path of Exile has NEVER been a game designed around PvP to begin with, any player with any significant PvP gaming experience will likely understand that very, very quickly.
Path of Exile is mostly a solo player oriented game ( trading aside of course ), and if you cannot rely on your teammate to counter a x-immune monster, you are better off not playing 'x' at all to begin with.

Avoiding all kind of immunities might end up making a great game, but unfortunately, that will not be PoE, Chaos immunity was already a thing at the very beginning of PoE ( can't tell about closed beta, but I believe that it was already there ).

I think you're taking my suggestion to an extreme that I didn't intend. I'm not saying that the game should completely refocus in favor of PvP alone.

I didn't mean that monsters should have immunity. I actually hate that idea, although I'm not seeing how doing something like it would annihilate build diversity. Giving monsters more pronounced strengths (that we actually have to pay attention to) would likely do the opposite: increasing build diversity and encouraging cooperative play without mandating it.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Khalixxa wrote:

When there are "bandaid" balances put on PvP (such as differences in skill function, damage scaling, healing debuffs, etc) it usually highlights problems with PvE such to make the bandaid necessary.

Not it does not.

It would be like trying to train a pony to compete at horse racing, you can give him some horse racing equipement, take care of it as good as you can, it will never win, it will never be good enough, because horse racing is for horses.
And PoE is just not a PvP game, it's not its purpose, it's not how it has been designed and the balance is the blatant example of why.

The problem from my perspective is that we have a pony, not that we're trying to make it race.

I'll admit that the "rule" I gave has exceptions, but every rule does. Let's look at the times when it actually works.

"

Fruz wrote:

Sure, GGG added couple of tweaks to allow PvP in it because ... why not if it does not cost them much ? It allows some people to have some fun with it, and it's completely fine.
But starting to mix PvE's balance from there ?
Fuck that, just. fuck. that.

Fruz, I'm very interested to know an example of something that you personally think is a problem with POE gameplay.

"

Qiu_Qiu wrote:

Here are issues that make PvP a very bad fit for PoE:
1) PvP should be using the same set of rules as PvE.
Not only is PvP using a special set of rules that renders some skills useless in PvP, with a lot of skill having specific rules within that, but a lot of effective mechanisms that are hardly ever used by mobs are heavily used by players and have hard counters that aren't needed in PvE.
2) Good PvP requires a certain amount of balance between characters being played. If a player can nuke half the map while the other can hardly put a dent to him, like in PoE, then there's a huge issue. There may be no solution for that part, as balancing for a certain pairing will be off-balance for players with ten times more or ten times less in those values.

I agree.

I just think that the "bad fit" is due, in large part, to faults that already exist with PvE.