VP+Reflect
" Sounds like you need to either reread what i wrote or look into some reading comprehension... I make builds to take as far as possible. To the endgame. Where it doesn't matter how much damage you have if you dont have the defenses to back it up and survive a single hit while likewise it no matter how tanky you are if you dont have the damage to get the job done your just as useless.. Gimping your builds in either respect in order to deal with outdated mechanics because your already limited options to deal with are made fewer while damage potential and mob life keeps going up.. Is Stupid and something has to change at some point. Another person who has never been to endgame yet wants to voice what people should be doing with their builds.. Just stop.. Go actually play the game and just stop. Or stay in your little safe T10-11 maps grinding your guts out for lvls that mean nothing past 90 and probably still dont have a lvl 100.. Of course none of this matters to you guys and you'll never see the issue when you dont even map past where it really becomes a problem. Where no matter how much life or defenses you have if you have adequate damage for T15+ content your fucked on reflect its just that simple.. But as long as most of the player base ignores that content because its the least efficient way to lvl of course most people cant see the forest for the trees.. Lets be clear here i dont actually want to reflect outright removed but its mechanic changed to something where it still does its job in being a mechanic people need to look for and play around while also at the same time being completely meaningless through half the game but once in maps the higher you go the more your screwed by it. Which also correlates with damage requirements for that content.. again when your running yellow maps and T11 tops of course it can still be dealt with by doing stupid shit like gimping your damage or giving up tons of damage for more defenses for the sake of a single mechanic.. But then your also basically restricting yourself to that sleeper mode content because your definitely not gonna deal with all the other mechanics in T15 on top of reflect when you make your build shitty just to deal with that one single problem mechanic.. There is a fine line between Consideration and Hesitation. The former is Wisdom, the latter is Fear. Last edited by Demonoz on Nov 20, 2017, 7:31:55 AM
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What "i want it all" mentality. You go on and play with 4-5K HP with Abyssus without ANY defenses etc. Every second is living on the edge because thats the way some people like it. You die. ALOT. And that's fine since you enjoy the gameplay. Don't even give a shit about the removal of Vaal Pact or Acuity for that matter. Fuck it, good ridance. Even more exciting gameplay where positioning, killing fast, dodging manually will happen. We are talking about REFLECT as it is.
Dark Souls is generally accept it as a the greatest Action Role Playing Game of its generation. Nothing stops you there from going 99 Dex and base Vitality with red tearstone ring IF you have the skill to pull it off. Besides "enough damage" is subjective. Even 5+ Million DPS sometimes are NOT enough IF you die in 1-2 hits. Why? Because you can be in a situation (and it happens frequently with me) where you have to carry 3-4 of your friends who cannot kill shit on Tier 15 map that has Enfeeble, extra life, physical damage reduction, reduced damage from extra crits etc. Also accept the fact that some skills are BAD with reflect. The ones that do very high burst damage, like blade flurry or Shield Charge. As i said i tried a tanky setup with high evasion, close to 8K life NO abyssus, reduced reflected damage on pantheon, only 15 damage passives and i would STILL get ONE shotted on reflect on a vulnerability map. Yeah, sure IF i was using Physical to lightning with 50/50 split between ele and phys damage i would survive, but the whole situation becomes stupid. And as i said. I accept reflect maps, i accept regular mobs with reflect aura. What i do not accept is beyond rares with reflect spawning out of nowhere. Or devourers etc. Reflect in general IS bad game design. But the again since instant leech existed which was the same the other way around, meaning Uncapped % leech which lets you turn your offense into active defense (real defense, not gamepla defense in the sense of "kill before you get killed"), i thought it was more reasonable to have UNCAPPED % Reflected damage which punishes you for the high damage you do. In that context it is more reasonable. If one goes, the other has to go as well. Not because you cannot survive A without B, but because as i said 2 times already they are 2 faces of the same coin. BOTH are bad design. Both should go. And that goes beyond personal preference. I do enjoy very much playing with instant leech. That does not mean that i think it is good game design. | |
" I get where you are coming from, I really do. But I'm telling you, if they remove reflect, PoE will be pretty much D3 with sunglasses. Can we please have a game left in 2017 that isn't 100% casual? I like working for my succes, not getting it handed to me on a silver platter just for breathing. Challenges, hurdles, walls, TRAPS, tricky mechanics and unforgiving rules keep you on your toes and force you to become better at the game. This all ties in to the modern "I want it all and I want it now" mentality. The song may be amazing, the philosophy is not. Carry on my waypoint son, there'll be peace when maps are done.
Lay your portal gem to rest, don't you die no more. 'Cause it's a bitter sweet symphony this league. Try to make maps meet, you're a slave to the meta, then you leave. | |
" You are describing a character that is extremely susceptible to reflect and physical damage in general. None of the defenses you mention have flat physical mitigation except for armor (which I guess wasn't that high to begin with and works best when used in synergy with other physical damage reduction sources). You might think it's a tanky character but it's not. From what you are describing my Archer with 5,5k hp from turmoil is much better at handling physical damage than your 8k dagger build. Abyssus (especially in Vulnerability maps without curse immunity) cuts your efficient hp against physical damage from 8000 to 5300 - 5700. In maps with vulnerability it's even worse. Still to one shot yourself with 5700 takes a lot of effort if you know what you are doing. If you have 0% damage reduction (I might be wrong but this is what you describe) and 75% reflect mitigation (Slayer + Yugul) you will hit yourself for 0,1 x (1-0,75) = 0,025 or 2,5%. This means you only need to crit for 228k to one shot your self. Even less in a map with vulnerability. However if you 5 endurance charges (20%), 1 basalt flask (15%) and the red trail boots (10%) and arctic armour (13% less damage taken) it looks better. 0,1 x (1-0,45) x (1-0,75) x (1-0,13) = 0,012 or 1,2%. Now you need a 476,5k crit to 1-shot yourself. (this is not taking into consideration your armor score which helps tremendously. A 476,5k crit would translate to 5700 damage taken with 0 armor. If you have 20000 armor with a flask up and running you could subtract 2k which keeps you more than safe from 1 shots. Probably even in maps with vulnerability). In other words: You didn't build around the reflect mechanic when you could have and you got punished for it. Last edited by Frankenberry on Nov 20, 2017, 9:12:53 AM
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People debate about wheter reflect should be removed or stay.
I started this Thread asking for a reflect rebalance. Dont want reflect to be removed from the game just want GGG to adjust Reflect to todays standards. The game is not the same as it was some years ago. We do more damage and therefore reflect is unforgiving nowadays which kills fun if you die to that while playing in HC. I have nothing against guys who play Low Dps builds or play really safe builds everyone likes different stuff. But I think reflect needs a rebalance while the game(damage numbers) and the playerbase evolves. Be kind to each other :) | |
" Alright but tell me why should it be rebalanced in the first place? Currently you just need to deal with reflect (like any other weakness or challenge your character has). To me it just seems like players got lazy due to VP and simply don't know how (or remember) to efficiently deal with the reflect mechanic even though it's easier than ever before. Personally I almost exclusively play bow archer. Sometimes a tanky version a glass canon version but I never had problems with reflect since they changed it from being an aura to a single mob because in either case because I dealt with the problem. In your original post you mention 1-shots from reflect. Please read some of the math I presented above. It's very hard to die from a 1-shot due to reflect if you cover your bases. Either through reduced reflect damage taken or elemental / physical mitigation or completely blocking / dodging an attack or a combination of all these options. However if you run around with a mirror dagger, abyssus and no physical damage reduction then... well it's kind of your own fault, right? Last edited by Frankenberry on Nov 20, 2017, 10:13:05 AM
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Reflect is just one of many modifiers that hose builds. That is what modifiers do.
Monster/Map Mods 1) Reflect - Glass Cannon 2) Soul Link - Area Attacks 3) Corrupting Blood - Many Hit Attacks 4) Nullifer - Flasks 5) Proximity Shield - Ranged 6) Chaining - Minions 7) + Resist/Physical Damage Reduction - Solo Damage Types 8) Reduce/Remove Effect of Curses - Curses 9) Reduce/Remove Life/ES Regen - Regen Builds 10) Avoid Aliments - Any Ailment Dependent Build Etc. Up until the nerf of Vaal Pact Glass Cannon did not have any modifier balancing it. Reflect was supposed to do that, but Vaal Pact prevented that. |
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" I remember there was that thing in ADoM: you open a door and a huge rock fall on you. That's it. You're dead if you're not tanky enough. Is this hardcore? Well, probably, but i'd say it's frustrating at best. Reflect is exactly what it is. It's frustrating, it's unnecessary limiting to what builds you can play, but has nothing to do with hardcore-ness or anything. It's a huge rock falling on you. | |
" Never even noticed that. " Like it means anything. Here, have that antibleed flask or portal scroll. " Don't care. " Ignore. No need to kill it. It won't kill you as well. " Wouldn't even notice, especially with pantheon. " Slows you down but doesn't kill. " Doesn't kill. " Never noticed. " Doesn't kill you. Ignore, go kill something else. " Dead in a fraction of a second. Sounds perfectly fair. Last edited by LaiTash on Nov 20, 2017, 11:14:52 AM
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" Only if you build a poorly made glass canon. It's really simple to deal with reflect. With or without VP. Just take it into account. |
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