VP+Reflect

"

Only if you build a poorly made glass canon. It's really simple to deal with reflect. With or without VP. Just take it into account.

You keep saying this and yet all your current characters use Vaal Pact. Yeah there is a way to deal with reflect. Just don't make a glass cannon. So much for a build diversity.

No other mods except reflect care if your build is "poorly made" or not. No other mods really limit what builds you can play and what builds you cannot. Volatile Blood had same problems reflect has now, do you want it back? After all, it was "really simple" to deal with, too. And now when it's nerfed to the ground PoE is much more casual right?

Make volatile great again.

"

LaiTash wrote:

"

2) Soul Link - Area Attacks

Never even noticed that.

"

3) Corrupting Blood - Many Hit Attacks

Like it means anything. Here, have that antibleed flask or portal scroll.

"

4) Nullifer - Flasks

Don't care.

"

5) Proximity Shield - Ranged

Ignore. No need to kill it. It won't kill you as well.

"

6) Chaining - Minions

Wouldn't even notice, especially with pantheon.

"

7) + Resist/Physical Damage Reduction - Solo Damage Types

Slows you down but doesn't kill.

"

8) Reduce/Remove Effect of Curses - Curses

Doesn't kill.

"

9) Reduce/Remove Life/ES Regen - Regen Builds

Never noticed.

"

10) Avoid Aliments - Any Ailment Dependent Build

Doesn't kill you. Ignore, go kill something else.

"

1) Reflect - Glass Cannon

Dead in a fraction of a second.

Sounds perfectly fair.

Of course, if you are playing a glass cannon build, you do not notice those things. The point is that those things effect other builds and not your glass cannon (which NOTHING effected, not even reflect, as it was SUPPOSED to)

That is kind of the point.

A few elaborated examples (as clearly you do not understand how those things effect other people but do not your build):

2) Soul Link. If you have low DPS and use area attacks, the creature you are fight (especially if it can summon more creatures) can easily kill you. But with Glass Cannon you kill it to fast.

8) Nullify Curses - If you think that nullifying Temporal Chains or Enfeeble does not kill, that is only because you are not exchanging any blows with the enemy. Again only because you are a glass cannon do you not notice.

9) Life Regen - If you are a build with high Life regen as your way of staying alive, having it set to 0% really hurts. You are 100% NOT as a Vaal user; of course you have not noticed it.

EDIT:
6) Chaining. Your response that there is a Pantheon power to help. Guess what, reflect has a Pantheon power to help too. It's Pantheon power is also on a minor, instead of major God. That means you have more flexibility when choose which major god to use.

"

CidAvadose wrote:

Of course, if you are playing a glass cannon build, you do not notice those things.

I don't play glass cannon builds - they die too easy.

"

2) Soul Link. If you have low DPS and use area attacks, the creature you are fight (especially if it can summon more creatures) can easily kill you. But with Glass Cannon you kill it to fast.

Is 60-70k DPS low enough? If so, my 5-link cleave gladiator qualifies, and no, it can't kill me.

"

9) Life Regen - If you are a build with high Life regen as your way of staying alive, having it set to 0% really hurts. You are 100% NOT as a Vaal user; of course you have not noticed it.

Yes it hurts, but it doesn't kill.

"

6) Chaining. Your response that there is a Pantheon power to help. Guess what, reflect has a Pantheon power to help too. It's Pantheon power is also on a minor, instead of major God. That means you have more flexibility when choose which major god to use.

Pantheon lets you *ignore* those projectiles, while yugul only reduces the reflected damage. And even without pantheon, chaining is not nearly as scary as reflect.

If you want to compare relfect to something, compare it to the old volatile which is gone for good and i think missed by no one.

Reflect has many ways in can be played around.

1) Know your maximum damage (versus a single target) and know your defences. Know the maximum damage you'd deal to yourself and adjust defenses accordingly.
- People can still have reasonably (just not absurdly) high DPS and not kill themselves on a reflect against a rare.
- Have a different weapon/skill on weapon swap that either
Does less damage
Or is physical instead of elemental or visa versa
- Runaway and unsocket a gem so you do less damage for that battle

2) If you are fighting on a map with reflect you can
- Change your play style: fight slower, don't hit enemies off screen, kite and kill enemies a few at a time
- Not open breaches (they are optional after all).
- Reroll the map so it does not have reflect
- Adjust you skill gems so that way you do less damage of the type that is reflected
a) A conversion gem works well here (physical to lightning)
b) Removing a support gem to do less damage
c) Swapping to your back-up skill set

By they way knowing that I prefer melee characters, like the marauder, and love absolute technique (which has the evil side-effect that I cannot dodge reflect damage) I decided to go far in on armor and sources of physical damage reduction because I knew that reflect would be a problem for my character.

"

LaiTash wrote:

"

Only if you build a poorly made glass canon. It's really simple to deal with reflect. With or without VP. Just take it into account.

You keep saying this and yet all your current characters use Vaal Pact. Yeah there is a way to deal with reflect. Just don't make a glass cannon. So much for a build diversity.

No other mods except reflect care if your build is "poorly made" or not. No other mods really limit what builds you can play and what builds you cannot. Volatile Blood had same problems reflect has now, do you want it back? After all, it was "really simple" to deal with, too. And now when it's nerfed to the ground PoE is much more casual right?

Make volatile great again.

rofl dude. There is no reason not to abuse VP at the moment but for your information the lvl 100 deadeye made it to lvl 98 before getting her hands on the Atziri gloves. Also I delete all characters I don't currently use that don't reach lvl 100 and had plenty of builds without VP in the past. In mayhem I am most likely gonna play without VP again.

A lot of other mods care if your build is poorly made or not. Freeze / curse immunity on flask setup (or Ascendancy or Rings) are important. Dealing with chaos damage is important. Doing enough damage for the content you wish to do is important. Having high efficient hp is important. Reflect is no different in that matter. You just got to adapt and deal with it.

Volatile had a completely different problem because you couldn't protect yourself against it efficiently and often you couldn't "outskill" it through gameplay. So no - I kept asking for Volatile to be changed and now it's a brilliant mechanic.

Making PoE more "Casual"? What on earth are you rambling about? They are two completely different mechanics.

I have given you the math and the tools to survive and deal with reflect. I have given you some tools to deal with reflect through smart gameplay. You can ask other players for better gameplay tips if you don't feel my advice was relevant for the specific character build you want to play.

If you Pathfinder use the flask increase + reduced elemental damage to reduce reflect.
If you are a Raider use dodge and deal many small hits (barrage or similar)
If you are champion have damage reduction.
If you are a Slayer use leech / reflect reduction or both.
If you Juggernaut use Endurance Charges and armor.
Gladiator, go block. Similar to Raider.

And so on and so on and so on. There are numerous options. For each build, setup and playstyle. However if you are a build that needs to deal with the reflect mechanic and you completely neglect doing so that's on you. Not the game. Not anyone else. You.

Every time I see one of the reflect complaining threads it's always easy to pinpoint the mistakes in the characters of the players that made those threads. And most of them take the advice and deal with the mechanic but you for some reason that I have yet to understand flat out refuse to learn a new trick or two. Guess it's right what they say about old dogs and tricks.

Btw the new VP gives you leech very similar to the current Slayer leech. Would you say a Slayer dealing elemental damage has a hard time dealing with reflect because he doesn't have VP? Of course not. And you know it's true.

"

Frankenberry wrote:

Volatile had a completely different problem because you couldn't protect yourself against it efficiently and often you couldn't "outskill" it through gameplay. So no - I kept asking for Volatile to be changed and now it's a brilliant mechanic.

Here we go again. Show me you "outskilling" reflect. I don't think you ever tried because VP does this for you.

They could just add a visible aura to volatile mobs and be done with it. Here we go. Can be outskilled. Just don't kill the damn thing. I guess not killing is even easier than not hitting. Or reduce it to low life and finish it by swapping to ranged. Or reduce it to low life and let DoT do the rest. Or just don't play pure melee. Perfectly avoidable.

"

Making PoE more "Casual"? What on earth are you rambling about? They are two completely different mechanics.

No they are very similar. Both are designed to punish specific builds with instant RIP while not affecting others at all. Both are insanely hard to avoid. Both aren't needed.

"

If you Pathfinder use the flask increase + reduced elemental damage to reduce reflect.

Right. I've been playing an elemental tornado shot raider while wearing sibyl's + yugul + flasks + dodge
but still VP was *required* to play it without dying or just being reduced to like 40% life due to reflect. I guess i also needed shittons of evasion.

"

Every time I see one of the reflect complaining threads it's always easy to pinpoint the mistakes in the characters of the players that made those threads.

Yes. But in such cases, people always assume Vaal Pact and all advices come to this - reduce the reflected damage to what you will outleech with the next hit.

"

Btw the new VP gives you leech very similar to the current Slayer leech. Would you say a Slayer dealing elemental damage has a hard time dealing with reflect because he doesn't have VP? Of course not. And you know it's true.

Of course it's not true. Slayer with VP is (was) a nonsense. He's using atziri's acuity instead.

I think we need to try a different angle.

Imagine a Path of Exile where Reflect does not exist.

This is actually fairly easy to imagine as almost all the best builds were all Vaal Pact Builds.

They had many similar traits
1) Very very high dps
2) Ignored almost everything that did not contribute to dps

In this situation damage nodes and Manuel dexterity of the player are virtually all that matter nothing else really does. Also as most damage can be done from a distance off screen the manual dexterity is not even that important.

Would GGG want either
1) the only play styles that are competitive (in terms of their leagues) are very high dps builds
or
2) the only play style that cannot be competitive is very high dps builds (though that skill set-up can be on weapon swap for bosses like the Shaper. It is not like it is eliminated completely.)

As an aside, under 1) multi-stage Bosses that GGG puts a lot of work into have complete stages ignored. People don't even bother to interact with them it is attack button and dead.

This is not a trick question.

LaiTash when you responded to me that the only mechanic you even notice is reflect that shows exactly what GGG does not want.

Similarly GGG wants people to use supports that do more then just add more damage.

GGG wants players to play a variety of play styles. Removing reflect would do the opposite of that.

The existence of Vaal Pact as it previously was caused the only play style that was deemed competitive to be the very high DPS style.

GGG has finally decided that that play-style is not healthy for them game if they want a variety of builds to be competitive.

Edit:
On Volatile

Besides being ranged you could not really build for or play around volatile.

Volatile as it was previously made Melee not viable.

Now Volatile can actually be a threat to ranged and melee can stand a chance against it.

Reflect can be built for and played around. There have been numerous examples of that in this thread.

"

LaiTash wrote:

"

2) Soul Link. If you have low DPS and use area attacks, the creature you are fight (especially if it can summon more creatures) can easily kill you. But with Glass Cannon you kill it to fast.

Is 60-70k DPS low enough? If so, my 5-link cleave gladiator qualifies, and no, it can't kill me.

that Cleave'r dies to reflect? i call BS..

"

Frankenberry wrote:

"

astraph wrote:

Some builds are very vulnerable to reflect. It is just the way it is. Mathil had to drop Shield Charge Berseker due to reflect. Even when he rebuilt it as a slayer with all kinds of reflect mitigation he still had some problems with it.

Playing pure physical blade flurry with abyssus, as i do, will get you destroyed. I play extreme glass cannon because i love it. HOWEVER, even for a short time when i respeced my pure physical Blade Flurry from glass cannon to tanky, with 8K life, Evasion/armour, NO offensive auras (was using Grace/and blashpemy enfeeble), and obviously i was using the 25% reflect mitigation on Pantheon, and on some cases i STILL ONE SHOTTED myselsf on reflect. Flat out one shot. Granted, i used a mirrored dagger, but i LITERALLY had taken 15 Damage passives (the dagger deicated ones, plus the 4 crit ones near RT). And the damage was definetely not comfortable for Shaper/Guardians, and i was not enjoying myself since i enjoy glass cannons and the reflect issue was not really solved. And that was with instant leech, imagine without it. I never really bitched about it because i do not care about leveling since 2014, and i do not really give a shit. I even consider it fair game when you see a reflect mob etc and hit. I consider it unfair on situations like, Beyond mobs with reflect where you have absolutely no control on if you hit them or not.

AS i said before, instant, % Leech and Instant % reflected damage are 2 sides of the same coin. From a design perspective if one goes, the other has to go as well.

You are describing a character that is extremely susceptible to reflect and physical damage in general. None of the defenses you mention have flat physical mitigation except for armor (which I guess wasn't that high to begin with and works best when used in synergy with other physical damage reduction sources). You might think it's a tanky character but it's not. From what you are describing my Archer with 5,5k hp from turmoil is much better at handling physical damage than your 8k dagger build.

Abyssus (especially in Vulnerability maps without curse immunity) cuts your efficient hp against physical damage from 8000 to 5300 - 5700. In maps with vulnerability it's even worse.
Still to one shot yourself with 5700 takes a lot of effort if you know what you are doing.

If you have 0% damage reduction (I might be wrong but this is what you describe) and 75% reflect mitigation (Slayer + Yugul) you will hit yourself for 0,1 x (1-0,75) = 0,025 or 2,5%. This means you only need to crit for 228k to one shot your self. Even less in a map with vulnerability.

However if you 5 endurance charges (20%), 1 basalt flask (15%) and the red trail boots (10%) and arctic armour (13% less damage taken) it looks better.

0,1 x (1-0,45) x (1-0,75) x (1-0,13) = 0,012 or 1,2%. Now you need a 476,5k crit to 1-shot yourself.

(this is not taking into consideration your armor score which helps tremendously. A 476,5k crit would translate to 5700 damage taken with 0 armor. If you have 20000 armor with a flask up and running you could subtract 2k which keeps you more than safe from 1 shots. Probably even in maps with vulnerability).

In other words: You didn't build around the reflect mechanic when you could have and you got punished for it.

I WAS NOT using abyssus in the "tanky" setup. Also i had something like 50% chance to evade plus ~50% block with flasks, enfeeble on blasphemy and high life regen, in addition to instant leech. Yeah in terms of physical mitigation i did not have much, but i was a BERSEKER, not a duelist so your math is way off to begin with. Also on a 5700 hit you would need 23500 armour to reduce that damage by 1/4 which essentially means 1425, so no 20000 Armour would not reduce by 2K, and if we are talking about an active flask,if i have time to react and press the damn flask i would have immortal call triggered so i would be safe anyway :P.

"

In this situation damage nodes and Manuel dexterity of the player are virtually all that matter nothing else really does. Also as most damage can be done from a distance off screen the manual dexterity is not even that important.

Nope. Once again - almost no one is playing glass cannon in hardcore even with VP, and there is a reason for that. Just because you can offscreen everything doesn't mean you can't die. And yes i'm speaking mostly from a HC perspective because i don't really know how the game looks like in SC. And honestly, i'd like to see MORE glass cannon builds in HC, not even LESS. And removing VP AND leaving reflect as it is now at the same time will completely kill what's little left of this kind of playstyle in HC. So much for my flicker strike character i was planning.

On softcore? Maybe. People prefer high clear speed because this way even if they die more often they get more experience and more currency and more everything.

Well there ARE ways to deal with it without lazy tricks like reflect. Make boss rewards mean something. Adjust their damage in a way that glass cannon has to manually dodge every single hit that a balanced build would survive. If a boss attack can one-shot both a glass cannon and a balanced character there is really no reason to play the latter.

"

1) the only play styles that are competitive (in terms of their leagues) are very high dps builds
or
2) the only play style that cannot be competitive is very high dps builds (though that skill set-up can be on weapon swap for bosses like the Shaper. It is not like it is eliminated completely.)

Well i think what they are getting if reflect not removed is

3) The only play styles that are competitive are very high DPS spectre builds that don't care about reflect.

I'm afraid Abyss will be extremely dull in SC.

"

multi-stage Bosses that GGG puts a lot of work into have complete stages ignored. People don't even bother to interact with them it is attack button and dead.

Mostly because you could outleech everything.

"

LaiTash when you responded to me that the only mechanic you even notice is reflect that shows exactly what GGG does not want.

If they don't want it then why did they nerf volatile blood? I barely notice this, too.
IF they don't want it then most if not all other mods should be in line with reflect and just as deadly (like: chained projectiles deal 200% more damage). They are not, not even close.

"

GGG wants players to play a variety of play styles. Removing reflect would do the opposite of that.

As i said, there are proper ways to achieve this instead of simply killing a glass cannon playstyle.