VP+Reflect

Or how about craft ring(s) with Essence of Insanity?

I really hope the old reflect stays.

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LaiTash wrote:

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Frankenberry wrote:

That's why VP needs to go.

Maybe, but we're talking about reflect here.

Not really since someone above asked why people think it's okay to have builds with heavy emphasis on defense and why it's not okay to have glass canon builds. I answered and that relates to VP.

And if you want to talk about reflect then it's designed to challenge glass canon builds but VP makes that more or less impossible. And reflect is not really an issue. GGG could add a few extra options - add a unique with 15% reduced reflected damage taken or buff the insanity ring a bit - but all in all reflect is not an issue for any builds that takes it into consideration. For a glass canon build that doesn't take it into consideration and is punished for it... well that's because the player made a mistake.

its A vs B

going slow is non-viable economy-wise already, but you stay alive
going fast is the best pro-money way, but it is risky (or isnt as long as VP is in the game)

risk vs reward! at least

or you can stop pretending reflect is such a big deal and fix your build already. it wont break it

these are POE's rules - you play along or click 'respawn in town' from time to time. like it or not

monster-idiocy builds like Vaal Power Siphon, Spark, Fireball, screen wide Frostbolts etc are all possible ONLY thanks to VP. these builds killed pretty much everything before it had a chance to react. so no risk. except reflect. bit brutal speed bump but GGG missed the point when the game was still salvageable. right now it is reflect or nothing - mobs pose 0 challenge whatsoever while alive and barely any when dead

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LaiTash wrote:

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slow and weak.
fast and strong.
rush things and die and/or get rich.

With VP gone and refect stays it's viable vs not viable

Ok, then in that case, all types of regen and other life recovery for enemies need to go too, as well all encounters that are essentially dps/clearspeed checks like Breaches, because those slow and weak tank builds can't handle them.


Ofc, the main difference there is there's not simple low-opportunity-cost options to massively spike that tank's dps, while there are several mechanics to dramatically lower reflect damage at extremely low cost.

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LaiTash wrote:

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slow and weak.
fast and strong.
rush things and die and/or get rich.

With VP gone and refect stays it's viable vs not viable

Not really. You can still do a glass canon build and go fast. You'll just need to deal with reflect and be better at positioning yourself instead of the current "I can outleech all damage" strategy.

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a glass canon build that doesn't take it into consideration and is punished for it... well that's because the player made a mistake.

And how is he supposed to take reflect into consideration? Play specific ascendancies? Wear specific uniques? Take specific pantheon powers? I honestly don't like it when you have no choice but to wear sybil's and take yugul because you want to play as a glass cannon. Stack defences? Then it's not a glass cannon anymore.

I understand why people were complaining about someone with like 4k HP can stand in a shaper beam. Now when this is gone, why do we still need reflect?

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You'll just need to deal with reflect and be better at positioning yourself instead of the current "I can outleech all damage" strategy.

Again: deal with reflect how, exactly?
My turmoil SSF sunder gladiator with like 70k dps + some bleed DPS can speed clear all content up to T15 and i don't need to worry about positioning or stuff like reflect. Now what's the point of playing a glass cannon if you end up playing at a slower pace than this?

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LaiTash wrote:

And how is he supposed to take reflect into consideration? Play specific ascendancies? Wear specific uniques? Take specific pantheon powers?

Um... YES. Duh. If it's a problem and there are solutions provided for you to use, you use the damn solutions. You don't cry to the devs to spoon feed you.

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LaiTash wrote:

I honestly don't like it when you have no choice but to wear sybil's and take yugul because you want to play as a glass cannon. Stack defences? Then it's not a glass cannon anymore.

It's also not a glass cannon anymore if the 'glass' part never comes into play now, is it? Reflect makes the 'glass' mean something. If you don't like it, don't be as glassy.

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Shppy wrote:

Um... YES. Duh. If it's a problem, you put actual in-game effort into dealing with it. You don't cry to the devs to spoon feed you.

What "actual in-game effort". Are you one of those who wants people to actually watch out for reflect mobs and don't hit them? I'd love to see anyone doing that, especially in Abyss league when mobs are going to jump on from under your feet. Or breaches. Whatever. And you deal AOE damage.

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LaiTash wrote:

I honestly don't like it when you have no choice but to wear sybil's and take yugul because you want to play as a glass cannon. Stack defences? Then it's not a glass cannon anymore.

It's also not a glass cannon anymore if the 'glass' part never comes into play now, is it?[/quote]

How come it "never comes" into play? I see them constantly dying on streams even with VP.

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LaiTash wrote:

Again: deal with reflect how, exactly?

Well there are plenty of ways.

A few examples:

20% of elemental damage you deal is reflected back at you.
However you will usually have 75% resistance as base.
Yugul gives you 25% reduction.

So that's 0,2 x (1-0,75) x (1-0,25) = 0,0375 or a total of 3,75% of the damage you deal per hit is reflected back at you. Now that's a character with a bare minimum of effort to survive reflect. You can furthermore stack a combination of maximum resistance, reduced elemental reflect damage taken and if needed other helpful sources such as reduced elemental damage taken through Pathfinder or the Wise Oak.

The key here is that the marginal benefit for each of these sources increases per investment. So for instance let's compare 2 pathfinders:

A) Does Lightning Damage, has a Vinktar's and picks up Primeval Force. Now it becomes 0,2 x (1 - 0,82) x (1-0,35) x (1-0,08) (Nature's Boon) = 0,021528 or 2,15%. So by just picking up a flask, a damage node and pathfinder. The difference from the 3,75% above and 2,15% now is a 42,7% reduction. In other words quite a bit. Because the marginal benefit is so high.

Let's take it a step further and at Sibyl's.

B) 0,2 x (1 - 0,82) x (1-0,75) x (1-0,08) = 0,00828 or 0,828%. So Sibyl's is not a 40% reduction. Compared to the 2,15% above it's a 61,5% reduction.

On top of that you have block / dodge / evade (provided you don't have the 'hits cannot be evaded' stat) to mitigate each hit.

So if you have 5500 hit points in example A you would have to hit yourself for 255.813 damage which takes a while for most builds and 664.251 in example B. So you would have to deal millions of damage in both examples before you actually killed yourself.

For physical builds your resistance is 0% but you can raise your physical reduction by quite a bit. Armour, endurance charges, arctic armour and so on are good sources. Reduced physical damage reflect works in a similar way as described above. Also it's only intially 10% of your total physical damage that is reflected back at you (Beware of adding all sources of physical reduction together. Some sources are multiplied together like endurance charges and arctic armour for instance).

Besides that there are other ways to deal with reflect to gameplay.

You can run with a 4L AoE setup (for instance a wander). You don't really need millions of damage to kill trash mobs. If you see a reflect just don't use your single target skill (typically barrage) on him. You can also just translate this into having a reflect safe AoE clearing 6L - this usually does not slow you down since you don't need the extra damage. In some cases you can even speed up your AoE clearing through adding extra less multipliers such as GMP + Chain

You can split your damage between physical and elemental. This way only part of your total damage is reflected back at you.

You can use Point Blank / Far Shot to lower your damage. For instance move away from reflect mobs if you have point blank.

You can activate Vaal Grace or Rumi's to increase your block / dodge and negate some hits completely.

You can use totems as backup (typically melee).

And usually in threads like this other players can give other good ideas and tips on how to combat reflect through gameplay and not through pure mitigation.

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So if you have 5500 hit points in example A you would have to hit yourself for 255.813 damage which takes a while for most builds and 664.251 in example B. So you would have to deal millions of damage in both examples before you actually killed yourself.

I can deal 255k single-target DPS even on some HC builds. Can do like 700-800k fully buffed. I wouldn't expect anyone in SC to accept anything lower than that. If you force them to do that, they won't play attack/selfcast builds, it's simple as that.

And to mitigate that reflected damage, you need some mandatory powers, flasks, ring and hell knows what. And a good amount of reaction too - some people are dying to desecrated ground, for Christ's sake!

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You can run with a 4L AoE setup (for instance a wander). You don't really need millions of damage to kill trash mobs

I need at least a few hundreds to kill Abaxoth + Haast duo that just spawned in a crowd i've just killed. Yes, trash mobs can be dealt with with much less. Some things cannot. It's ok for a more tanky build, but i'm a glass cannon, if i don't kill them quickly they'll rip me apart as i can't survive neither a flameblast nor glacial cascade.

And btw if you don't need millions of damage why are people complaining about glass cannons at all?

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You can use Point Blank / Far Shot to lower your damage.

Once again: what's the point of playing a glass cannon build if i'm expected to lower my damage? I'm already really low on defences. Why not just play a solid tanky build that doesn't need to worry about reflect and to "split damage" so that you can't run neither phys nor elemental reflect maps? Or a totem build and stack as much damage as i want?

And what about offscreening a reflect mob with far shot?

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For instance move away from reflect mobs if you have point blank.

And again you want people to watch out for reflect mobs. That's not going to happen. If people are complaining about perfectly telegraphed Avarius attacks that have like 2-3 seconds delay you can't expect them to see a reflect mob inside a pack and stop attacking immediately. That's reality. I can kill Kitava and not take a single hit but even i couldn't do something like that every time (and honestly i don't want to). That is not a classic roguelike where you have like eternity to decide your next move. It's a fast-paced action RPG with billions of mobs and lots of stuff with fancy effects happening all the time.

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And usually in threads like this other players can give other good ideas and tips on how to combat reflect through gameplay and not through pure mitigation.

Except that most likely they never tried doing that in reality.