VP+Reflect

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LaiTash wrote:

Just remove reflect. Nerfing VP already kills 90% attack/selfcast glass cannons and is seriously limiting the rest. There's no need for reflect anymore. Pantheon needs balancing so that 90% wouldn't take the same powers, buffing yugul will only do the opposite.

*gasp* it's almost like glass cannon builds are supposed to be fragile!

Instant, Percentage Based, Reflected damage has to GO now that Instant, Percentage Based, Leech will be gone. Not because there are no ways around it etc. Even with VP you WILL get one shot by reflect with high DPS. It has to go because both are 2 faces of the same coin. The same way that your damage becomes your primary defense through istant leech, the same way you are punished by dealing alot of damage by instant reflected damage. Since one is gone, the other has to go too. End of story.

They could introduce reflect as a DoT debuf WITH A CAP on its rate, as normal leech does.

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Shppy wrote:

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LaiTash wrote:

Just remove reflect. Nerfing VP already kills 90% attack/selfcast glass cannons and is seriously limiting the rest. There's no need for reflect anymore. Pantheon needs balancing so that 90% wouldn't take the same powers, buffing yugul will only do the opposite.

*gasp* it's almost like glass cannon builds are supposed to be fragile!

"fragile" != "certain death to a single reflect mob"
There is no need to punish this kind of builds twice - by removing instant leech and leaving reflect in place. Just once is enough.

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Demonoz wrote:

I mean seriously.. Have you ever done endgame content? Guardians? Shaper? Its quite obvious you have not because the only way that content is even possible is to push your damage as far as possible.

I have done those end-game fights and: You correctly identified one of the core problems: Shaper and, to a lesser extent, Guardians, are DPS tests. They test whether your DPS is high enough and at the same time you have some way to not die.

Would be great if lots of the game was less of a DPS test. And a clear speed contest. At that point, we could actually work on things like "do less damage be more safe to reflect". That'd be great.

Instead of asking for solutions to actual problems, people for some reason like to ask for band-aids.

only EXTREMELY poorly made builds will get ONE shot vs reflect. note that 'one' means '1' not 'burst offscreen damage while i was checking new tv series'

only EXTREMELY poorly made builds are in general affraid of reflect. builds that simply stack damage and nothing else. builds that have 1 mil dps just to clear thrash in maps

you just want high dps while the game itself tells you to slow down a little. you ofc can ignore these signs and pretend that you are entitled to high damage/no worries playstyle but 'good' character means 'good dps' AND 'good survivabiliy, including vs self-damage'

if you think you can apply YOUR vision of what is 'good' character in POE when game itself tells you otherwise.. good luck

builds that are mostly affected:
Lycosidae wanders (100% accuracy for free? oh, it is NOT for free!)
5k life, nothing else, 2mil+ damage

both are something i deem perfectly wrong and unacceptable


i hope reflect stays as is and we can finaly separate the seed from chaff and move on

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both are something i deem perfectly wrong and unacceptable

Why? Somehow people find builds that invest everything into defences and nearly no damage are perfectly ok and acceptable but glass cannons that do exactly the opposite? No, we don't want them in this game. Like you're being forced to play them.

There should be a place for pure glass cannon builds in PoE. There is nothing wrong with it.

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Char1983 wrote:

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Demonoz wrote:

I mean seriously.. Have you ever done endgame content? Guardians? Shaper? Its quite obvious you have not because the only way that content is even possible is to push your damage as far as possible.

I have done those end-game fights and: You correctly identified one of the core problems: Shaper and, to a lesser extent, Guardians, are DPS tests. They test whether your DPS is high enough and at the same time you have some way to not die.

I would agree with you for the Shaper fight, as that effectively puts a ticking clock on you with the infinite duration vortexes that will eventually make the arena unsafe everywhere (you can slow that clock, but it is still inevitable). As a result, your dps is put to the test, which does encourage reaching dps values that are overkill for most other content just to get by vs the Shaper.

But the Guardians have no such thing, really. There's no sense of inevitability that means you have to have a certain amount of dps, taking it slow against them is perfectly reasonable. I mean, just for laughs I took like 15 minutes letting Spectral Spirits (from insanity weapons) take down a couple of the guardians... it wasn't fast, but there was nothing making it more dangerous for it to take that long. If I'd have tried the same against the Shaper, it probably would have been an inevitable death (even if i cleared the adds quickly with something else)


Honestly that's the main thing I've got against Shaper's design, it is very much just a sheer dps check instead of just a general build/tactic check.

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LaiTash wrote:

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Shppy wrote:

*gasp* it's almost like glass cannon builds are supposed to be fragile!

"fragile" != "certain death to a single reflect mob"
There is no need to punish this kind of builds twice - by removing instant leech and leaving reflect in place. Just once is enough.

Certain death to a single reflect mob you make zero effort to defend yourself against? That sounds entirely justified. You want the benefits of a glass cannon but cry when it gets turned against you?

And 'punish this kind of build twice'? LOL, what the hell kind of logic is that? Your build is getting punished ONCE, by losing VP. You exploited VP to protect yourself against everything, be it enemy dps or your own reflect. Leaving reflect in is not additional punishment to your glass cannon any more than it is to any other type of build.

Reflect is easier to counter than it ever has been before even without VP. The ring was buffed recently, Yugul was added, and there's nodes in the passive tree that offer reduced reflect damage. There's even a couple ascendancies that give massively reduced reflect damage. All in all if reflect is that consistently deadly to your character you could easily use any of those and more to deal with it. But you don't, because you don't wanna pay any kinda opportunity cost. You want the game handed to you, plain and simple, and that's why VP appeals to you.

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LaiTash wrote:

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both are something i deem perfectly wrong and unacceptable

Why? Somehow people find builds that invest everything into defences and nearly no damage are perfectly ok and acceptable but glass cannons that do exactly the opposite? No, we don't want them in this game. Like you're being forced to play them.

There should be a place for pure glass cannon builds in PoE. There is nothing wrong with it.

The builds described are glass canon builds that through VP has little to no opportunity cost. Especially in softcore. These character setups can have it all: speed, ability to easily kill endgame bosses and defense because your damage becomes a strong defensive option through instant leech. It all aligns and so there is no need to balance offense and defense. It's hardly even what I would say qualifies and it definitely doesn't live up to deep character customization. All it takes is point blank, 161% life, 6L and gear.

Defensive builds have an opportunity cost. They are tanky but lack speed and often also lacks enough damage to efficiently kill bosses and endgame bosses such as Guardians and Shaper. There is a downside. Everything doesn't align.

That's why VP needs to go. Also you will still be able to make glass canon builds and kill bosses with them. You will just have to dodge boss abilities and play glass canon builds the way they are supposed to be played: through being a good player with some decent boss dodging skills. But you will no longer get it all in one package. Which is a good thing for PoE as a whole.

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LaiTash wrote:

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both are something i deem perfectly wrong and unacceptable

Why? Somehow people find builds that invest everything into defences and nearly no damage are perfectly ok and acceptable but glass cannons that do exactly the opposite? No, we don't want them in this game. Like you're being forced to play them.

There should be a place for pure glass cannon builds in PoE. There is nothing wrong with it.

I got nothing against either:

tank: you go slow, you're probably fairly weak, but you survive a nuclear war.
glass cannon: you can clear everything in one click, including yourself if you're not careful. watch where you point you wand.

both have a plus side, both have a bad side.
slow and weak.
fast and strong.
rush things and die and/or get rich.
take your time but overall get less loot/exp per hour but live.

deal with your choices. it's not the games fault for whatever choices you chose.
(I choose a middle ground. atleast for now. Quite happy with it.)

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Frankenberry wrote:

That's why VP needs to go.

Maybe, but we're talking about reflect here.

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slow and weak.
fast and strong.
rush things and die and/or get rich.

With VP gone and refect stays it's viable vs not viable