So the remaining 1% actually came from drops/crafting? Well, that's already a big achievement compared to PoE. I'm looking at my current character in Harbinger, and I can't find a single self-found item on him. 100% of the items that RF Jug is wearing came from poe.trade.
The thing is, PoE in its current state is not designed to be SSF-viable.
It's not about being "SSF-viable" or not. It's about the balance between drops, trade and effort. I would've hated an instant AH just as much as I would've hated not being able to trade. Two evils. Two edges. Far left and far right, like politics, while the middle ground is the best thing for most people.
Not the best items in the world, but all of these are either self made or self found. It is possible, but with the "I don't identify much because I'm OK with trading for everything"-attitude, I can see the problem. If you buy VERY GOOD items the moment you hit level 70 - the chances of finding upgrades becomes low.
Did you buy weapons or found them?
During this whole leage on 2 x lvl90+ chars I haven't found a single of these claws. Without trade I would never have this build defining unique item and would probably quit that character.
Trade becomes needed the further you want to go, uber atziri / shaper / vaal temple surely demand very good gear that is hard to acquire through your own efforts.
My 2nd char needed 7 primordial harmonies. Me and my friend (who plays 16 hours a day every day since start of league) found total of 2 harmonies and 2 eminence. Which meant that we would have to go trade again to fill my needed slots for optimal build functioning.
I am not a speaker for trade, dont get me wrong. I just presented some examples where I needed to trade.
This league, in coordination with guild, I gathered 4-5 tabs, thats 144 items per tab of yellow rings/amulets. And proceeded to identify for 1-2 hours at a time and analyze what is the good, usable stuff, either for sale or for builds of my teammate.
In the end, from around 3000 amulets and rings, 1 amulet and 1 ring was usable and really good, maybe 5-10 were sold in range 2-3 chaos and 2-3 sold for around 20-50chaos.
I can't call that good in any way. Except it was fun for me to handle all of this, I only saw how futile it is to try to find 1 in a million chance to have rolls which I wanted, and those not even of highest tier, T2-5 would be all good, but no.
With rising player base, I suspect quality of drops will go down even more, cause it would mean that we would be flooded with good items, but we aren't, so my theory is that it is inversely proportional, quality of dropped loot and number of players (not accounting for crafted loot)
I think GGG needs not solving trade issues, but other game systems which are the root cause of why trade is most efficient.
Spreading salt since 2006
Last edited by Necromael#6926 on Oct 24, 2017, 5:35:07 AM
Who actually finds half the stuff in this game to complete or do a build? Who even finds the right currency to use? This entire game runs off PoE.Trade.
Anyone who plays SSF and hit endgame. Those players clear Labs, Shaper and Uber Atziri just as fast as those who have access to trade. While I agree that the game is too dependent on third party solutions, it plays just fine without them.
I, for one, don't like pressing too many buttons. That doesn't make me unskilled, lazy, complacent or whatever other descriptor you are trying to pluck from your vocabulary. - Unknown philosopher, ca. 2025
Who actually finds half the stuff in this game to complete or do a build? Who even finds the right currency to use? This entire game runs off PoE.Trade.
Anyone who plays SSF and hit endgame. Those players clear Labs, Shaper and Uber Atziri just as fast as those who have access to trade. While I agree that the game is too dependent on third party solutions, it plays just fine without them.
Those players also play almost 24/7 and rack huge number of hours on their ssf chars. Also they play specific builds which can handle ssf and having no ideal gear.
I can do it too, just pay me days wage and I'll invest 12 hours a day to finish whole game as a ssf player without problems.
Game is too easy for experienced ssf players, so its a bad comparison. As people clear all content with white gear too. Just check item display cabinet subforums. Gear is not needed to complete whole game.
Gear is only needed to complete it in an optimal and convenient way.
Spreading salt since 2006
Last edited by Necromael#6926 on Oct 24, 2017, 5:51:29 AM
I think GGG needs not solving trade issues, but other game systems which are the root cause of why trade is most efficient.
Trade will ALWAYS be the most efficient way. There's NO solution to that. No matter how they tweak drop rates and in-game progression, trade WILL be more efficient.
But trade is easy. Players choose to bypass every RNG element and buy whatever they need. It IS a choice, because they want it fast - understandably. But tweaking drop rates a little bit, especially "OK" rare items wouldn't hurt the game. It would probably make it a little bit easier for people that trade just a little bit, but people buying everything already wouldn't notice much difference.
And yes, I've bought one of the claws, Ancient Orb'd the other.
I think GGG needs not solving trade issues, but other game systems which are the root cause of why trade is most efficient.
Trade will ALWAYS be the most efficient way. There's NO solution to that. No matter how they tweak drop rates and in-game progression, trade WILL be more efficient.
But trade is easy. Players choose to bypass every RNG element and buy whatever they need. It IS a choice, because they want it fast - understandably. But tweaking drop rates a little bit, especially "OK" rare items wouldn't hurt the game. It would probably make it a little bit easier for people that trade just a little bit, but people buying everything already wouldn't notice much difference.
And yes, I've bought one of the claws, Ancient Orb'd the other.
Yes I agree, and I also think that essences were a step in right direction, incentive to use gear crafting more without adjusting drops of gear.
isn't it always wonderful that we can skim through the podcast and selectively argue on a particular topic that is controversial?
One can say the same thing is happening to those that like trading the items they want once they reach a certain amount of currency skimming the rest of the loot hunt purpose.
And it's apparently two sides of the same coin here.
The thing I will never buy from hardcore traders that"If you don't trade then you can't progress" invalidated right after by those who do it on SSF.
And the side of players that trade casualy and feel that nothing bad can happen by making trading more easy.What could go wtong,right?Why are they so stupid to not even think about it,right?
There is no winning ground here exempt if tomorrow GGG woke up and decided that SSF should be the normal.Not gonna happen either since the community got so hanged onto trading.
The only real solution I see is trading regulations.Something like infinite trades between guildmates,but limited trades in the day with other people.
Or posting one item for sale for its item slot individualy(so 10 items, that is one armour, one helmet) so you won't make multiple sales per day and have regulated trading.Or something.
it's quite a shame that all I see from all people are ideas revolving that it must be like an ah or not and not other ideas discussed.
If no ideas given, then I guess they will stick to the same formula with my best bet being integrating poe.trade to this site so they won't rely at least to 3rd party sites and their tools of alerting players faster or slower on items popping up.
Start conversation but not on failed premises.Apparently GGG knows their game and hence their success on it.
So the remaining 1% actually came from drops/crafting? Well, that's already a big achievement compared to PoE. I'm looking at my current character in Harbinger, and I can't find a single self-found item on him. 100% of the items that RF Jug is wearing came from poe.trade.
The thing is, PoE in its current state is not designed to be SSF-viable.
It's not about being "SSF-viable" or not. It's about the balance between drops, trade and effort. I would've hated an instant AH just as much as I would've hated not being able to trade. Two evils. Two edges. Far left and far right, like politics, while the middle ground is the best thing for most people.
Not the best items in the world, but all of these are either self made or self found. It is possible, but with the "I don't identify much because I'm OK with trading for everything"-attitude, I can see the problem. If you buy VERY GOOD items the moment you hit level 70 - the chances of finding upgrades becomes low.
Did you buy weapons or found them?
During this whole leage on 2 x lvl90+ chars I haven't found a single of these claws. Without trade I would never have this build defining unique item and would probably quit that character.
Trade becomes needed the further you want to go, uber atziri / shaper / vaal temple surely demand very good gear that is hard to acquire through your own efforts.
My 2nd char needed 7 primordial harmonies. Me and my friend (who plays 16 hours a day every day since start of league) found total of 2 harmonies and 2 eminence. Which meant that we would have to go trade again to fill my needed slots for optimal build functioning.
I am not a speaker for trade, dont get me wrong. I just presented some examples where I needed to trade.
This league, in coordination with guild, I gathered 4-5 tabs, thats 144 items per tab of yellow rings/amulets. And proceeded to identify for 1-2 hours at a time and analyze what is the good, usable stuff, either for sale or for builds of my teammate.
In the end, from around 3000 amulets and rings, 1 amulet and 1 ring was usable and really good, maybe 5-10 were sold in range 2-3 chaos and 2-3 sold for around 20-50chaos.
I can't call that good in any way. Except it was fun for me to handle all of this, I only saw how futile it is to try to find 1 in a million chance to have rolls which I wanted, and those not even of highest tier, T2-5 would be all good, but no.
With rising player base, I suspect quality of drops will go down even more, cause it would mean that we would be flooded with good items, but we aren't, so my theory is that it is inversely proportional, quality of dropped loot and number of players (not accounting for crafted loot)
I think GGG needs not solving trade issues, but other game systems which are the root cause of why trade is most efficient.
It's not about trading for gear you need. This is already PoE. Always has been PoE. You find something good for someone else, and they will trade you the primordials you need. That's completely different the what Chris said about the D3 AH being the most efficient way to find gear. Going out and farm wasn't really an option unless you got stupidly lucky. In PoE you can farm anything you like. Will you find gear for yourself? Unlikely, but you will find something you can sell to fund your own build.
I don't understand the confusion where on 1 hand a game offers no alternative besides sitting infront of an AH and a game that clearly does, but you still have to trade to get the items you want.
Moreso, if you really IDed 3k jewelery, you probably just have no clue how to price jewelry. It's probably 1 of the hardest things in PoE. And what looks like crap to you can be invaluable to someone else. I alch multiple tabs early league, and always find multiple exalt pieces in there.
Last edited by Miská#0911 on Oct 24, 2017, 8:24:28 AM
3 of the 120hr+ leagues I played in, I never even saw an exalted orb drop. Nor a piece of equipment with an estimated value of 1ex+.
So I've been forced to be a 'budget meta' type player.
....
If you suck at trading and theorycrafting both, that's an impossible hurdle to overcome in PoE.
well, its not really that youre forced to be a budget meta type player because of your drops, its the second thing, you become one by not being decent at theorycrafting and trading. You dont have to be great at them but being competent and active, not sucking at them, you wouldnt be in that position regardless of the drops. The theory of the game is what the entire thing revolves around so its not rly the trade system or the drop rates, its not getting to grips with the core game systems.
"
Destructodave wrote:
You dont make it in this game unless you are capable of using PoE.Trade. You just don't.
people are lvl100 with 6L awesome gear in solo self found temp hardcore leagues, having killed shaper and uber. So what you said here is factually incorrect, plain as day anyone who cares to look at the situation can see that is not true.
"
Destructodave wrote:
You dont realize exactly how far behind the curve you are just playing the game compared to watching someone play PoE.Trade. When you are sitting there wondering what you have to do to get up enough exalts to buy an Atziri and your friend is buying a Mirror, you realize that yes, if you want to be wealthy in this game you need to learn to abuse PoE.Trade.
I played harbinger for about 4 weeks, I dropped 1 exalt I think, didnt find any high tier uniques, didnt find a mirror or a mirror shard, didnt flip any items. Spent my time playing mostly tier 2 maps with mostly self found gear, self linked 5L armour, occasionally played some t6 and t7 maps. Put stuff I found playing the game in public sale tabs and sold them to people who messaged me, is that abusing poe.trade?
Spoiler
could I have got twice that by also flipping items? Sure. I could have got quadruple that by rushing restricted drop bosses with a meta killer build and farming them all day instead of t2 maps. But bottom line is you can just stroll to endgame fairly casually with a shit tier, mostly self found build, farm shitball white tier maps, throw items in a public stash tab and make a mirror. So if you want to be wealth you CAN abuse poe.trade, you CAN play poe.trade all day, but you dont NEED to, you can just play trash maps with a trash build and trash gear, stopping to respond to trade pms as they come along.
The thing is with all this, if people want GGG to listen to them then basing the argument for change on things GGG know are not true, making incorrect statements and misrepresenting quotes from the devs to sell the point just weakens the point being made, maybe even completely sinks it.
Id like to see poe.trade brought into the game, shut down the public api streams, remove the whoops, start to throttle searches a bit if excessive amounts of them are being made by an account all day every day.
I feel like an automated AH purely for currency/essence/fragment trades could be great. I wouldnt make item trading any easier though, perhaps cross instance trading, perhaps not. Id get rid of whoops and actually make it less powerful, just bring it in game and get the private indexers/3rd party stuffs out of the situation. Youre not getting any more functionality than you are now for item trades by doing this though, its the same or less functionality than you have now and if you lot are under the impression youre gonna suddenly become better off as a result of doing this sort of thing then think again.
"
Frankenberry wrote:
Chris Wilsons main point wasn't that 99% of the gear he got in D3 was through the action house. His point was the cost of doing business on the action house was so low it the only viable way to play the game (besides buying items for real money).
Transaction costs in PoE are time and effort. You need to have these at a certain level or the game will erode into a mass trade simulator just like D3 did. And no - it's not a trade simulator at the moment despite what forum trolls are trying to tell you. Currently it's actually possible to make 100+C per hour with the right build (not necessarily an expensive one) and Atlas setup. Just look at the numerous "I cleared 1000 x T10 dunes - here are the profit in excel sheet"-type of threads on reddit.
If the transaction cost from trading goes close to 0 (which was the case in D3) it basically means you aren't killing stuff anymore to gain currency and loot (mainly to sell to others). You end up flipping instead.
yeah pretty much.
I think chris is generally pretty spot on. I even watch tv while playing, I watch tv while playing any farming game. Theres the questing, theres the big pressure endgame boss runs, but then theres lots of mindless endgame grinding and when ur grinding u kind of go into a reflex action sort of mindset. I like audio books, I think you can almost completely pay attention to an audio book and grind a grinding game at the same time, theres very little crossover there in the mental functions. Currently listening to Sword of the Lictor, first time Ive given this series a bash, pretty fking weird tbh, a somewhat aimless tumble through fairly random events has been in progress for the best part of 3 books in a row now.
Its pretty good tho in its own way, after spending my 20s with shulgin and lynch my minds been cast adrift on stranger seas than these, Ive developed a knack for enjoying a scenic road to nowhere.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that you made that much currency from map drops in four weeks. I have gotten five exalted orbs and two kaom’s hearts this league and I am way behind your wealth level. What am I doing so wrong?
in leagues i rarely buy stuff. for the current league's cycloner i bought an axe, starforge and a second belly to be able to smoothly switch from 5 link to 6 link.
i reliably get to level 90+ with my chars and unlock 90 percent of the atlas.
the gear is not perfect, but i think the majority of mappers uses equal stuff, there is only the need to buy stuff if you want to level fast and get bored in a month of a new league.
i quite enjoy the slow progression although i think that 6 linking somehow doesn't work this league.
i do buy stuff from the market: prophecy coins in the hundreds to have something to do, vaal orbs and perandus coins just in case...
selling stuff is quite a different topic, it's my main income which stocks my whealth up to 1k+ chaos per league and 5 ex on average which i consider much for playing 2 to 3h per day only.
for me the current trading system is perfect. i always get what i want in less than 2 minutes and people stuff me up with minimal efforts from my side and allow me to get endgame gear without me really doing endgame.
i rarely ever got negative experiences trading. but then, i also categorically put players on ignore which can't type a simple ty after a trade. personal habit, sorry guys :-)
age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill!
i also categorically put players on ignore which can't type a simple ty after a trade. personal habit, sorry guys :-)
That's so pathetic it's almost endearing.
glad you liked it.
it's one of the main features for me: you don't have to trade with people you don't like for whatever reasons.
the practical outcome is that all those guys spamming #820 with wtb and wts requests don't get any items from me while i don't have any negative outcome out of it.
did i say i love trade interactions? i do.
age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill!
Last edited by vio#1992 on Oct 24, 2017, 11:48:40 AM
