Chris and his D3 Interview

"

Bolander wrote:

The problem here is that people just can't accept PoE devs vision about trading. Personally, I'd like to see a better in game trading, BUT the devs already stated a thousand of times what they think about trading and why they won't put an AH in game through a lot of interviews in the past and now...

If my memory isn't failing there was a very good one when Brevik helped GGG in the chinese server project.

So, maybe you don't agree with what they say but they have them reasons and I'm sure in one thing at least, now we have people that manipulates a hard market, if it was easier they could dominate it even more and since there will be more access to trade the drop rate of items will go down to hell.

Yet they not only allow PoE.Trade, but actually make profit from it in the form of Public Stash Tabs. So where is this vision? Still stuck in 2013? I'm leaning more towards their reasons being financial and less about their "vision." If they cared at all about their vision they would eliminate PoE.Trade or at least some aspects of it instead of actively profiting from it in the form of Tabs and allowing a 3rd party site to dictate their game.(Saves them money).

I get tired of hearing this vision talk when they abandoned that vision a long time ago. Its a cop out at this point. Just come out and say the truth. We dont want to waste money making it when a 3rd party site does it for us, and it would hurt our selling of Public Stash tabs and we need that money. Thats the truth. And they even know how PoE.Trade operates. They know you can live search for multiple things all the time 24/7. They know its the equivalent to D3 Ah botting. But they allow it. Why? For us poor gamers? No for their poor pockets is why.

I dont have a problem with it, but I do have a problem with someone lying to my face about it. Everytime I hear them trash talk D3 AH yet allow PoE.Trade to operate as it does it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Especially when they are making hand over fist money off tabs because of it, trying to claim some kind of higher moral ground or vision. Just a load of crap is what that is. It's 100% financial and greed.

"

Pyrollusion wrote:

We trade for every item we need. Well except for the SSF guys but thats beside the point.

What's funny is your rationale is that trading is the quickest way to obtain items so that's what you need to do. Except that mentality is exactly why they don't want to make trading even more convenient - they want you to grind the game to find items. If you buy them all what is left to do?

"

ladish wrote:

"

Pyrollusion wrote:

We trade for every item we need. Well except for the SSF guys but thats beside the point.

What's funny is your rationale is that trading is the quickest way to obtain items so that's what you need to do. Except that mentality is exactly why they don't want to make trading even more convenient - they want you to grind the game to find items. If you buy them all what is left to do?

Amass currency which is mostly what people who play longer than 1 month per league do anyways.

The only way to enjoy various builds is to trade for them. You want to be like Mathis? You have to trade. You aren't going to be running around finding all these different builds' worth of items. You are going to be trading for them.

After the first month all that is left is people who want to try other builds, and people who want at amass currency. You can do neither without trading.

Even in standard the goal is to amass currency. Thats why people play something other than SSF. There is no reason to NOT play SSF if you don't plan on trading or amassing wealth.

If they want you to grind the game to get items, why do they make it so hard to get 6 links? So hard to get some orbs/uniques/etc? The only way you get most of the stuff in this game to use is by trading for it.

I really dont know what other game you guys pretend to be playing. You sound like you are all playing D3.

"what do you do after you trade for all the items?" Well what the hell are you doing if you don't? Grinding out 4 links? Using crap rares you picked up off the ground?

After the initial run through on a character, your replayability comes solely from trading for items to make other builds to play, or from amassing currency. I mean MAYBE you are one of those people who can just randomly grind something ad nauseum for no reason at all. Like a long-time Warframe player. But those aren't exactly the people you need advice from, to be honest.

"

Destructodave wrote:

If they cared at all about their vision they would eliminate PoE.Trade or at least some aspects of it instead of actively profiting from it in the form of Tabs and allowing a 3rd party site to dictate their game.(Saves them money).

You run a lemonade stand. First and foremost, you enjoy seeing people drink your lemonade and quench their thirst. You have a vision of Primo Lemonade being sold for $2 and normal lemonade for $1. However you notice a ton of people giving their primos to others for $1.50 or so. They even set up their own stand down the road, with all profits still going to you. Everyone is enjoying your lemonade immensely. What do you do? Yell at them? Sue them? Legal fees are expensive, and all your favourite drinkers are already used to $1.50 primos. You know they'd hate it if you take them away. There are a minority that say it should be $1.13 primos but you haven't caused too much of a stir simply by saying you won't close down the other guys and telling them you're working on payment plans so that $1.45 primos are available for some people under some situations. Is the sanctity of your "vision" broken? Or would you rather see people drink your lemonade?

"

And they even know how PoE.Trade operates. They know you can live search for multiple things all the time 24/7. They know its the equivalent to D3 Ah botting.

Notifications are now synonymous with asynchronous instant automated transactions? That's news to me. (Guessing some people run scripts to piggyback off live search, too, but that's probably against Terms of Service, yet incredibly difficult to catch and verify without punishing false positives).

"

Everytime I hear them trash talk D3 AH yet allow PoE.Trade to operate as it does it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Especially when they are making hand over fist money off tabs because of it, trying to claim some kind of higher moral ground or vision. Just a load of crap is what that is. It's 100% financial and greed.

A lot of people only disliked D3AH for RMT reasons. Even then, synchronous manual posting and transaction execution was never forced in D3 to my knowledge.

Also, I don't see the link between vision and morals here. Did they ever claim to be doing something more morally superior by following their vision? Or did they simply imply that they were obstinate jerkwads who wanted to make a thing their own way?

Charan has compared Chris to a toymaker who wants to see people play with his toys. It's a bit of a tough job, though, when every change you make angers one half of your players, and every change you don't make angers another half, and you see that the last toymaker who set out to make the same kind of toys disappointed a huge number of people because they listened too much to certain players, and now all those people in PoEland make fun of it because it's so oversimplified.

Last bit of devil's advocacy for this wall of text. GGG has said they've been working on asynchronous trade options. GGG also said they were working on desync. We now have Lockstep. Is it too much of a stretch that a company could achieve the same type of miracle twice?

Well, probably.

Chris Wilsons main point wasn't that 99% of the gear he got in D3 was through the action house. His point was the cost of doing business on the action house was so low it the only viable way to play the game (besides buying items for real money).

Transaction costs in PoE are time and effort. You need to have these at a certain level or the game will erode into a mass trade simulator just like D3 did. And no - it's not a trade simulator at the moment despite what forum trolls are trying to tell you. Currently it's actually possible to make 100+C per hour with the right build (not necessarily an expensive one) and Atlas setup. Just look at the numerous "I cleared 1000 x T10 dunes - here are the profit in excel sheet"-type of threads on reddit.

If the transaction cost from trading goes close to 0 (which was the case in D3) it basically means you aren't killing stuff anymore to gain currency and loot (mainly to sell to others). You end up flipping instead.

"

ShadyC wrote:

"

adghar wrote:

Selling is annoying so I rarely have more than 1 to 2 shop tabs open.

sigh.

How do people type shit like this and NOT understand that it supports the point they're trying to oppose?

I literally just made a pseudo-lengthy post about having an AH in another thread. I'm gonna paste it in a quote:

"

Ok. Since nobody wants to take up my open challenge about presenting me with a how & why on the D3 AH ruining the game, but yet continuously refer to it as an example, maybe I need to start the train.

The AH in D3 did literally nothing negative to the game. If you perceive it as having made players spend more time browsing items than playing the game, then I'm sure the same exact thing is ALREADY happening for those players here in PoE with poetrade. If you think the Real Money portion of the AH was negative, then I ask you, how? Everyone LOVES throwing around the whole, "but it doesn't affect YOU," argument when talking about meta vs non-meta builds in PoE. Well you wanna talk about something not affecting you? Somebody else buying an item for real money. That doesn't affect you. Just like how it doesn't affect you if they buy something in PoE with in-game currency. By the way, people buy items all the time in PoE with real life money by using d2jsp. But you goons make NOT AN UTTERANCE about that.

And when they took the Real Money out of D3's AH, it served a totally pure purpose. It was exactly what an AH was supposed to be. You play the game, you save up, you buy upgrades you were unable to find.

Then their brilliant game designers decide they have a philosophical problem with it and they take it away. The game is now FORCIBLY self-found. And the game begins to die; and as of this day today, it is indeed dead.

Take away poetrade. I DARE you. If you think people are gonna welcome the trade chat shenanigans again, you're sorely mistaken. If you think people would play PoE if it was forcibly self-found like D3 is, you're sorely mistaken. Just because you completely missed it happening doesn't mean that poetrade didn't completely save the life of this video game on its own. Just because you don't want to accept it doesn't mean it isn't 100.00% true.

An auction house in PoE would do only good things.

Listen. It's quite simple, really.

1) A game without trading is self-found only. Do you want self-found only for PoE?

2) So you want trading. Ok. Well the best form of trading is an auction house.

What's the debate even about? It's really just these two logical steps. Instead, GGG says they "want a hybrid"? What does that even mean? A hybrid of good and bad?

And who even are they to talk like poetrade is part of their game? It's a fucking 3rd-party site, made out of NECESSITY because GGG refuses to make something for us outside a trade chat.

Every time this game's trading has gotten easier, the game has directly improved in vital signs because of it. So... where's the confusion coming from? It's extraordinarily linear. Just look forward at the road, what are you doing looking off into the trees & shit for?

It's just ALL so incredibly fucked up. The frustrating part is all of the short-sighted community members that also just don't get it.

This just gave me a digital boner. Spot on. /thread

I pick up loot only during leveling to lvl cca 60. From lvl 60 and above I pick up items only for vendor recipes - chaos + gcp, occasionally identify something. Later my filter hides all items worth less than few c, show uniques and maps lvl 11 and higher.

99% items I have are from trade.

I played whole day today, in Opera have 9 tabs opened, by playing and trading I got 19 ex, started with cca 2ex in other currency than chaos and ex as I had none.

In no way I would farm maps for something different than experience, as getting through loot would take me so much time while chance to pick something worth is so small - its not worth imo. But I am happy other players are doing that and I can make both of us happy by buying sellers stuff :).

Hey OP, why isnt the podcast linked?

Also: obligatory "SSF rocks teh Casbah" comment, laughing at trader-players and their inability to loot properly.

"

Destructodave wrote:

"

ladish wrote:

"

Pyrollusion wrote:

We trade for every item we need. Well except for the SSF guys but thats beside the point.

What's funny is your rationale is that trading is the quickest way to obtain items so that's what you need to do. Except that mentality is exactly why they don't want to make trading even more convenient - they want you to grind the game to find items. If you buy them all what is left to do?

Amass currency which is mostly what people who play longer than 1 month per league do anyways.

The only way to enjoy various builds is to trade for them. You want to be like Mathis? You have to trade. You aren't going to be running around finding all these different builds' worth of items. You are going to be trading for them.

After the first month all that is left is people who want to try other builds, and people who want at amass currency. You can do neither without trading.

Even in standard the goal is to amass currency. Thats why people play something other than SSF. There is no reason to NOT play SSF if you don't plan on trading or amassing wealth.

If they want you to grind the game to get items, why do they make it so hard to get 6 links? So hard to get some orbs/uniques/etc? The only way you get most of the stuff in this game to use is by trading for it.

I really dont know what other game you guys pretend to be playing. You sound like you are all playing D3.

"what do you do after you trade for all the items?" Well what the hell are you doing if you don't? Grinding out 4 links? Using crap rares you picked up off the ground?

After the initial run through on a character, your replayability comes solely from trading for items to make other builds to play, or from amassing currency. I mean MAYBE you are one of those people who can just randomly grind something ad nauseum for no reason at all. Like a long-time Warframe player. But those aren't exactly the people you need advice from, to be honest.

Trading is part of the game. Congratulations, you have found out this game is balanced around trading. Still not sure what you are arguing here. The argument is wether you can play PoE, and with minimal trading get anywhere. And the answer is YES!.

Do you need to be trading heavily to become wealthy? Nop. The game actually offers you a choice. Yes trading will get you more wealth faster, but it's not so unbalanced that it is trading or you are screwed. You can easily farm anything you want in PoE without to much effort. Wich is the whole freaking point. Poe.trade is convenient, probably even more convenient then GGG ever wanted PoE to have. But it still has enough barriers (Whisper people takes time) to not screw the balance towards mapping vs trading to much.

"

Frankenberry wrote:

Chris Wilsons main point wasn't that 99% of the gear he got in D3 was through the action house. His point was the cost of doing business on the action house was so low it the only viable way to play the game (besides buying items for real money).

Transaction costs in PoE are time and effort. You need to have these at a certain level or the game will erode into a mass trade simulator just like D3 did. And no - it's not a trade simulator at the moment despite what forum trolls are trying to tell you. Currently it's actually possible to make 100+C per hour with the right build (not necessarily an expensive one) and Atlas setup. Just look at the numerous "I cleared 1000 x T10 dunes - here are the profit in excel sheet"-type of threads on reddit.

If the transaction cost from trading goes close to 0 (which was the case in D3) it basically means you aren't killing stuff anymore to gain currency and loot (mainly to sell to others). You end up flipping instead.

"PoE is not a trade simulator". "Let me show you how to make 100+ c/ hr 'playing' the game".

There was a thread a while ago, pretty long and popular, discussing ways to maximize "actions per second" to maximize profit. Like clicking to pick up a scroll was a cardinal sin as it wasted an "action".

All of this does not scream "game" does it?

I know, I know, to,each their poison. But ARPGs are my poison, and this one is sooooooo close to perfect for me......