Pay 2 Win Premium Tabs Features - why GGG lies

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

P2W definition via urban dictionary:

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pay-to-win

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

or another:

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Pay to win

Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game.

Just want to point out those aren't definitions of p2w but rather examples of it. Those aren't descriptively broad enough to encompass all possible scenarios of p2w so they aren't definitions.

Thats because P2W is a basically just a slag term used in multiple cases.


But its ok because people love going crazy over the dumbest fucking shit. Like I don't even know why I'm responding in this thread, GGG didn't lie. Stash tabs are a convenience, just like premium tabs, just like currency tabs. God fucking forbid them for providing a nice feature to people willing to pay and support the game. Instead we gotta burn them at the steak because the "win factor" if there is such a thing like that in this sort of game far outweighs the positives that the game has created.

The only game more ethical from a business standpoint that I can think of is Dota 2, its completely free, offers ways to get cosmetics for free and except for a couple of instances with communities, which all ones have provides the "best" business model.

There are too many factors in this sort of game to say stash space = win. People trying to narrow down and remove elements of the game to prove a point, it doesn't work in your scope because the scope isn't possible.

Skill
RNG
Knowledge
Time

All of those are factors needing of consideration, not just money, as argued above. The P2W things I've seen and what I know directly gives you something, having a larger backpack isn't going to do anything for me if I dont know what to put in it. Getting a backpack preloaded (like league heros or whatever) is different. Thats just P2W, he\you are gaining something directly and immediately over me.

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Maswasnos wrote:

Yo Goetzjam, in the interest of some more constructive discussion, could you post your answers to the following questions?

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+ Would it be better for the community as a whole if the access to the main functionalities was free?
+ Does GGG need the cash that gating it provides (rather than the insincere debate about whether they need cash at all)?
+ Are further trade improvements going to require that players have premium tabs? If not, how are people that bought them going to react?
+ Were there other ways of implementing this that would have been better?

Not going to lie your questions are obviously targgeted at pulling out specific answers instead of sparking an actual discussion.

Main functionalities? Are you saying that the selling part, aka the premium tab thing should be applicable to all tabs. My answer is its too late for that, I think. I think the way GGG views it is that people willing to support the game (and maybe support further if they have regular tabs purchased extra) can benefit from a system they wanted to test, but not release all at once. Typically supporters are more forgiving then F2P people that might not have patience for a broken system.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd have no issue going back to acquisition, I still have it on my machine and update it because it honestly provides me features that I like. Like searching options are much better.

Can't you or anyone see that it would be a really negative thing to sell something only to offer it completely free later? I can see 1 premium tab being given away, but giving the function to all regular tabs, not so much. That being said I think they should cease immediately the sale of regular tabs.


Cash, that isn't up to us to decide. If they are doing this just to get more cash then its the wrong move, IMO it was more to reward supporters and encourage more people to support.

Well if further ones don't require premium tabs that would be fine. People that have purchased them to date should only be doing so to get what they got at the time of purchase. Thats like me purchasing a supporter pack and later complaining when they don't add more too it.

I think stuff like cross instance trading won't require premium tabs, I don't think all instances of trade improvements will be locked behind premium tabs.



Other ways that could have been better? I mean we don't know how its coded, this might have been the easiest and most cost effective way to do so. Because the tabs are renameable it allows for the pricing thing to work easier, that isn't something regular tabs do. Am I surprised and maybe GGG surprised that the community is acting like a bunch of fools, you fucking bet you I am. Doesn't help that some of the larger or more popular community members spout shit out their mouths without thinking of repercussions.

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goetzjam wrote:

Thats because P2W is a basically just a slag term used in multiple cases.


But its ok because people love going crazy over the dumbest fucking shit. Like I don't even know why I'm responding in this thread, GGG didn't lie. Stash tabs are a convenience, just like premium tabs, just like currency tabs. God fucking forbid them for providing a nice feature to people willing to pay and support the game. Instead we gotta burn them at the steak because the "win factor" if there is such a thing like that in this sort of game far outweighs the positives that the game has created.

The only game more ethical from a business standpoint that I can think of is Dota 2, its completely free, offers ways to get cosmetics for free and except for a couple of instances with communities, which all ones have provides the "best" business model.

There are too many factors in this sort of game to say stash space = win. People trying to narrow down and remove elements of the game to prove a point, it doesn't work in your scope because the scope isn't possible.

Skill
RNG
Knowledge
Time

All of those are factors needing of consideration, not just money, as argued above. The P2W things I've seen and what I know directly gives you something, having a larger backpack isn't going to do anything for me if I dont know what to put in it. Getting a backpack preloaded (like league heros or whatever) is different. Thats just P2W, he\you are gaining something directly and immediately over me.

It's all good man. I'm chiming in purely for the interesting conversation, I don't care one or the other. It's not like GGG is going to change their ways so the discussion for me is just for entertainment.

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goetzjam wrote:

There are too many factors in this sort of game to say stash space = win. People trying to narrow down and remove elements of the game to prove a point, it doesn't work in your scope because the scope isn't possible.

Skill
RNG
Knowledge
Time

All of those are factors needing of consideration, not just money, as argued above.

If money is ever a factor, even if it's just one factor among many, then in those situations where money is relevant, it's p2w.

And no, you can't go all Schroedinger's cat on this one. If you do, then you can't genuinely take the position that the game is never p2w; the best you could claim is that you don't know, and I couldn't know either. The disadvantage of skepticism rhetorically is that you can't defend, only dismiss, and since you're white-knighting, defending isn't really optional.

I will concede one point to you: the use of the word "is" (and its tenses). I guess it's exaggerating a bit to say the tabs are p2w, because sometimes the advantage gained is insufficient to overcome other factors. But sometimes it is sufficient. Thus, tabs are sometimes p2w. See? Properly qualified.

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The game is completely free and will never be "pay to win".

Still inaccurate.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

There are too many factors in this sort of game to say stash space = win. People trying to narrow down and remove elements of the game to prove a point, it doesn't work in your scope because the scope isn't possible.

Skill
RNG
Knowledge
Time

All of those are factors needing of consideration, not just money, as argued above.

If money is ever a factor, even if it's just one factor among many, then in those situations where money is relevant, it's p2w.

And no, you can't go all Schroedinger's cat on this one. If you do, then you can't genuinely take the position that the game is never p2w; the best you could claim is that you don't know, and I couldn't know either. The disadvantage of skepticism rhetorically is that you can't defend, only dismiss, and since you're white-knighting, defending isn't really optional.

I will concede one point to you: the use of the word "is" (and its tenses). I guess it's exaggerating a bit to say the tabs are p2w, because sometimes the advantage gained is insufficient to overcome other factors. But sometimes it is sufficient. Thus, tabs are sometimes p2w. See? Properly qualified.

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The game is completely free and will never be "pay to win".

Still inaccurate.

You don't get it. You don't get to define P2W

Thats the whole point.

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goetzjam wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

There are too many factors in this sort of game to say stash space = win. People trying to narrow down and remove elements of the game to prove a point, it doesn't work in your scope because the scope isn't possible.

Skill
RNG
Knowledge
Time

All of those are factors needing of consideration, not just money, as argued above.

If money is ever a factor, even if it's just one factor among many, then in those situations where money is relevant, it's p2w.

And no, you can't go all Schroedinger's cat on this one. If you do, then you can't genuinely take the position that the game is never p2w; the best you could claim is that you don't know, and I couldn't know either. The disadvantage of skepticism rhetorically is that you can't defend, only dismiss, and since you're white-knighting, defending isn't really optional.

I will concede one point to you: the use of the word "is" (and its tenses). I guess it's exaggerating a bit to say the tabs are p2w, because sometimes the advantage gained is insufficient to overcome other factors. But sometimes it is sufficient. Thus, tabs are sometimes p2w. See? Properly qualified.

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The game is completely free and will never be "pay to win".

Still inaccurate.

You don't get it. You don't get to define P2W

Thats the whole point.

You did. I'm using your (second) definition.

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goetzjam wrote:

See this game is like a scale, either you get XP or you get wealth. XP diminishes if you try to gain wealth and wealth diminishes when you try to gain XP only.

And this is exactly why the tabs are pay to win. You find something mediocre (or great) mapping. You dump the item when you grab your next map, someone PM's you 5 minutes into the next map for that very item, you trade with them a couple minutes later (WHEN YOU GO TO GRAB YOUR NEXT MAP), and get a nice bit of extra currency. If that isn't saving you time then nothing ever will. By allowing you to save time trading the tabs provide an advantage that players without them lack.

No one is saying it takes a terrible player and makes them great (at least no one that I'v read is saying that). What we are saying is that it gives people with the tabs an edge. I love the game and support GGG regularly - this does not change the fact that the tabs are a p2w feature because they give me an IN-GAME advantage.

Goetz with all due respect, you are just repeating a claim others said here.
a claim I do not agree with at all:
"P2W is either Pay To Instantly and Unquestionably Win, or not at all"...

to be blunt, that's kind of like saying anything lesser than a Heart Attack or Brain Cancer, is not an illness.

in today's gaming industry we got used to a pretty "high threshold" of what P2W is. many games just take it into absurd levels. but that's not the standard I measure by.

my definition, is anything paid that gives you an advantage or an ability to do anything, which someone who didn't pay will at least struggle to (and at worst, will not be able to at all).
to that end, Stash Tabs are such an advantage.
we both know it is, and can only argue about the actual magnitude of it.
and sadly I know from experience because it's pretty much the only MTX I would never consider buying... and you really should see the crazy, painful ways I use to (unsuccessfully) get around that.
and to that end, Premium Tabs will be an advantage in trade, given someone who has premium tabs vs. someone who has normal ones. certainly vs. someone like me who has none at all.

you don't need to instantly win. that's the point.
it still takes a lot of everything you mentioned, to "win" in Path Of Exile, tabs or no tabs.
but at least in the field of inventory, I can say with utmost certainty: you have advantage over me, if you have as much as one extra tab. normal one. not even premium.
yes, all my Mules and Hideout Crafting Benches present and accounted for.

and the real point to drive it home is, you do not have any advantage over me in any field (except looking smoking hot, which isn't even an ARPG thing in my book) if you buy that sexy Weapon Effect and I don't.
and btw I will. because it's sexy AF and there's a sale coming up.

will not buy tabs, because for me they are a P2W element.
mind you one element does not make the entire game P2W. that's magnitude. that's threshold.
two elements? yeah that would be 2x closer.
I don't want that.
I don't want GGG to get one step closer to breaking their "oath"... heck I'm willing to go "full Charan" if they are that desperate for money, to even consider it.

and all because... well let's just say that in a couple decades of gaming and more than a few hopeless addictions, I saw too many great companies sell out and abandon what they initially held sacred.
that's "game fan" me.
"businessman" me knows it's going to happen anyway sooner or later, because everyone has a price.
just... not now. please, not now.

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

See this game is like a scale, either you get XP or you get wealth. XP diminishes if you try to gain wealth and wealth diminishes when you try to gain XP only.

And this is exactly why the tabs are pay to win. You find something mediocre (or great) mapping. You dump the item when you grab your next map, someone PM's you 5 minutes into the next map for that very item, you trade with them a couple minutes later (WHEN YOU GO TO GRAB YOUR NEXT MAP), and get a nice bit of extra currency. If that isn't saving you time then nothing ever will. By allowing you to save time trading the tabs provide an advantage that players without them lack.

No one is saying it takes a terrible player and makes them great (at least no one that I'v read is saying that). What we are saying is that it gives people with the tabs an edge. I love the game and support GGG regularly - this does not change the fact that the tabs are a p2w feature because they give me an IN-GAME advantage.

You can with regular tabs price those items as well. I can set a tab wide buyout, for example I have one for 2c, 5c, 10c, ect. But if I put it in a 5c tab, doesn't matter if that is a tab wide buyout in game or acquisition, either way it gets listed and sold.



Pay to win has to be giving you something you CANNOT get for free. YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN get it for free.


@smcb

You are using this one?

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Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game.

How are you beating anyone with tabs? Have you not read a single fucking thing?


Whatever, I'm done with this circle jerk. Dos, smcb you don't see any reason, for all intents and purposes you likely believe that tabs, of any kind are P2W, despite them not providing you anything directly.

I could pay for someone to make me an app on my phone that allows for me to control the mouse on a computer, I could leave the game open all the time and trade with my phone anytime anywhere, is that pay to win?

It can't be because it isn't giving GGG money right? I could just RMT, thats not P2W right, although it provides the quickest and easiest way to gear without worrying about stash space?

Buying stash space is like increasing the size of your backpack, it requires many elements for it to be an advantage, it itself is NOT one because it itself provides nothing over another player. I guess less like a backpack and more like a chest, a pay to win element would be stuff like increasing actual character inventory space, allowing you to pull more out of the map then an non paying character.

@john

There are a couple of things to this argument.

Are regular tabs p2w or do they provide an advantage. Many people in this thread think so. Fine so be it can't change your perception on them. Quite honestly its been so long since I've had so little tabs to work with I dont know. To me though GGG hasn't exactly given us many mtx options to purchase I purchased quite a lot of stash space.



As for the whole premium vs regular tab, I can say with udder certainty that it isn't P2W, it provides the same (technically less features) as the 3rd party programs do. Now if you say I don't use 3rd party programs, well that isn't my fault you don't. You can't claim something is P2W because you refuse to use the tools available to you.

I could just as easily use acquisition as I could use premium tabs, its literally the same fucking thing for me. I put 2\4\5\10\25 chaos tabs, then a general pricing tab which I price individual items or ones I havent fully thought out to price yet. So could I do this without additional tabs, I guess not, can I do the same thing with the same amount of time with acquisition, you bet your ass I could, I did it for years before now.


I have an advantage over you because lets be frank here, I'm just the better player. I have far more experience in endgame, with endgame builds, with trading, with pretty much whatever thing you want to come up with. Do you think the tabs enabled this to happen or do you think perhaps it could be something else?

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and all because... well let's just say that in a couple decades of gaming and more than a few hopeless addictions, I saw too many great companies sell out and abandon what they initially held sacred.
that's "game fan" me.

Stash tabs have been sold in this game since essentially day 1, back when you supported, back when I initially supported. You literally supported a game that had a p2w element by your definition. By anyones definition premium tabs are less p2w then just regular additional tabs, because you have an easy free alternative, but in both cases you have free alternatives.

In terms of selling out, this is what I was talking about a few pages ago, where this game is literally turning into a casual shitfest, as such it attracts a crowd that quite frankly I don't like.