Pay 2 Win Premium Tabs Features - why GGG lies

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goetzjam wrote:

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Premium tabs make trading easier/faster. This in turn means players that have them can list/sell items faster. This means a player with equal time to play and no premium tabs is at a disadvantage.

Easier\faster? It actually takes the same amount of time if you have tabs for separate buyouts, as for individual pricing I guess its time saved? I don't really individually price items that much.

My own experience has been that it is both easier and faster to trade utilizing the new tabs. I may be unique in this but it seems unlikely. I do feel it is an advantage, however slight or negligible you might think it is, over players that do not also have these tabs. Also note that arguing "how much" of an advantage something is in no way negates that it is an advantage. Assuming a similar knowledge base, player A will have more success in-game trading than player B if they both invest similar time and A has premium tabs while B does not.

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Maswasnos wrote:

Qiu_Qiu said it well:

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It saddens me to see that the discussion is so much about semantics rather than the important questions such as :

+ Would it be better for the community as a whole if the access to the main functionalities was free?
+ Does GGG need the cash that gating it provides (rather than the insincere debate about whether they need cash at all)?
+ Are further trade improvements going to require that players have premium tabs? If not, how are people that bought them going to react?
+ Were there other ways of implementing this that would have been better?


Semantics are a dishonest way of setting a discussion out of its tracks.

I like this format as well. Unfortunately the people arguing the negative side refuse to use a logical approach. Take each point, respond with your own opinion, and quit attacking people for not agreeing with you.

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Maswasnos wrote:

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mezmery wrote:

show ggg your resolve then
quit.

Yeah! Rather than discuss the problem rationally and suggest ways to fix it, just quit! That'll show 'em! lol

there are like 50-60 ppl nonstop shitposting in this forum corner, with average online of about 8-10k, and respective player base.
how is that even correlating with player base?
have fun with forun pvping, but dont think it'll change anything.
that's not how compaigns are being handled in any mmo resistance movement.
there is no ingame spam for people to upvote and discuss the topic and join this thread, to begin with

maybe because there are for example 3 types of lab whiners and they are indesputable minority?
1) bad players
2) bad connection
3) bad pc
there are like 3 ppl crying about tabs. when majority is realy happy and throwing money at ggg.

want good example - look eve online monocle drama and learn some politics finally, it'll help you in real world when you finally emerge from your moms cellar

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goetzjam wrote:

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My personal point of view on the matter: tabs are p2win, because they give the owner an ingame advantage - more storage space. Premium tabs are even more so, they also give the owner a convenient ingame selling system. Currency are like standard stash - more storage space - and some further convenience since you can tell at a glance how much currency you have and more quickly move it around...

That stash space is useless unless you know what to do with it. That knowledge doesn't come with the purchase of the stash space. Furthermore the premium tabs provide you nothing you couldn't do with 3rd party programs that have been proven safe and vetted by the community for years. As for currency tabs, you can tell at a glace what you have if you aren't a disorganized slob. The currency tab just prevents people from being disorganized basically. But someone with good organization skills can do the same fucking thing. You know how much each stack of currency is, you know how many slots are in a column, its not that hard to do the math, even at a glace.

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That specified, they're low in the p2win scale - Premium a bit higher that the others, Standard maybe even not since you can mule and make alt accounts for free - but they're in there nonetheless. The only things truly not pay2win are cosmetics and pets ( and there was a debate long ago about pets, since they could easily tell you when you d'synced ...).

Premium CANT be any higher then regular ones because they don't provide anything other then what the regular ones do with 3rd party programs. Except colors, having fancier colors is the advantage here? As for pets, LOL because of desync ok dude......

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So, since at some points - closed beta? - GGG stated that they would only ever sell cosmetics and nothing pay2win, they could - by my personal point of view- be called "liars"...

Here is the thing all you people can learn. Your point of view isn't the final word on P2W or not. If you don't like it I guess you all can keep crying like babies, won't change the fact that they sell stash tabs, premium tabs and currency tabs. That won't change, if they decide to make 1 of the free tabs premium, then I guess you all "won" but in terms of changing the scope of the issue you won't.

P2W definition via urban dictionary:

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pay-to-win


Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

or another:

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Pay to win

Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game.

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Bolded the part where you agree with me ;-)
And those definition of p2w? Could apply to POE aswell ...

I know my point of view isn't GGG's and should be taken for what it is: MY point of view.
And fyi no, I'm not crying; I'm giving feedback.

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My own experience has been that it is both easier and faster to trade utilizing the new tabs. I may be unique in this but it seems unlikely. I do feel it is an advantage, however slight or negligible you might think it is, over players that do not also have these tabs. Also note that arguing "how much" of an advantage something is in no way negates that it is an advantage. Assuming a similar knowledge base, player A will have more success in-game trading than player B if they both invest similar time and A has premium tabs while B does not.

How is it any easier then using 3rd party programs? This of course assumes that you used them in the past.


@Wazz72

3rd party or not you still have the same ability to list items appropriately. Not only that if you are organized it could be much quicker to list items there then it would be in game.


Did you completely ignore the definitions or just don't comprehend them?

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pay-to-win


Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

This doesn't apply to PoE. GGG doesn't sell ingame items that provide you with stats or damage, they don't sell shavs or lightning coils, ect. The important part here is the skill factor, again without the skill nothing else matters.

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Pay to win

Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game.

What are you beating them at, in addition the skill factor here? If I have all regular tabs and you have all premium tabs you aren't at an advantage, because I am more skilled then you. I can with acquisition sell my stuff as quick and more efficiently then you could do even 1\2 your items likely.

Remember the skill factor here. You can't buy skill.

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goetzjam wrote:

if we are discussing p2w and the aspect that having more stash space = automatically win, that is false. My friend is a complete noob, he doesn't ask me for help really and I don't care how "efficient" he is because he is having fun. I could potentially ruin his experience by sharing too much information or by PC every item or giving him as much knowledge as possible. If he was able to sell items past the initial stash tabs worth then he is gaining an advantage outside of the game while utilizing the free stash tabs provided to him. However without the knowledge or the ability to price check items, that stash space does NOTHING.

So how can something which by definition has no value in itself "win" you anything in PoE? You must have knowledge for it to be useful. P2W elements are not ones that require knowledge or experience, they simply require an amount of money spent and are instantly at an advantage, do you firmly believe this is the case in PoE considering the fact every single transaction requires interaction and every single transaction requires knowledge of pricing?

What you're describing is "pay to automatically win." But any paid transaction which confers a competitive advantage to a player is - or at least can be - p2w, even if utilizing that advantage requires some skill.

The litmus test is: if you have two identical players (and identical RNG), you give one the MTX and one not, will those two players tie in ladder rankings, for every possible skill level? If not, then the MTX is at least sometimes p2w. (/game page says "will never be pay-to-win.")

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goetzjam wrote:

Here is the thing all you people can learn. Your point of view isn't the final word on P2W or not. If you don't like it I guess you all can keep crying like babies, won't change the fact that they sell stash tabs, premium tabs and currency tabs. That won't change, if they decide to make 1 of the free tabs premium, then I guess you all "won" but in terms of changing the scope of the issue you won't.

I have never said they should stop selling additional tabs, Premium tabs, or currency tabs. I bought a currency tab as soon as it was offered.

I don't even like the word "lie" in the thread title. Lying implies deliberately making untrue statements. My position is merely that GGG is making an untrue statement; I don't care about whether it's deliberate or not, I'd just prefer it fixed.

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goetzjam wrote:

P2W definition via urban dictionary:

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pay-to-win

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

or another:

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Pay to win

Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game.

First, urban dictionary isn't a reliable source of definitions.

Second, the second definition fits. The effect is not massive, so additional and/or Premium tabs do not let you best players who are much more skilled than you, but they do enable you to best players who are only slightly more skilled than you. Which brings us to...

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goetzjam wrote:

I think this is an important one, better players, aka ones that have the knowledge of items, builds, economy, ect will always have the advantage. You can spend 1k on stash tabs and list every single item you have looted, won't change the fact that someone who spends little to nothing but has knowledge will out perform you.

Is this true with most player skill vs player skill comparisons? Yes. Is it true 100% of the time? No. A large amount of skill advantage is enough to offset tab advantage, but a small amount isn't.

Skill > p2w
is not logically equivalent to
p2w = 0

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goetzjam wrote:

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Premium tabs make trading easier/faster. This in turn means players that have them can list/sell items faster. This means a player with equal time to play and no premium tabs is at a disadvantage.

Easier\faster? It actually takes the same amount of time if you have tabs for separate buyouts

Straight-up, blatantly false.

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goetzjam wrote:

P2W definition via urban dictionary:

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pay-to-win

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

or another:

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Pay to win

Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game.

Just want to point out those aren't definitions of p2w but rather examples of it. Those aren't descriptively broad enough to encompass all possible scenarios of p2w so they aren't definitions.

@Goetz: I was going to reply but Scrotie did it before, and way better than me.

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The litmus test is: if you have two identical players (and identical RNG)

This is impossible to happen, but ok.

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, you give one the MTX and one not, will those two players tie in ladder rankings, for every possible skill level? If not, then the MTX is at least sometimes p2w. (/game page says "will never be pay-to-win.")

What if the person that purchased stash tabs spent more time dealing with their stash as a result, what if the person that didn't just runs maps constantly and doesn't setup a shop except to sell higher chaos items to help roll maps. What if by having the stash tabs your slowing your progress mapping because your making more trades, you are winning on the currency front but not the XP front.

There is no win, if you define the ladder as the win, someone else will depute it and say that the economy is the win. I guess if people have the same exact RNG you could say every sale made by person A is directly advancing them over person B, but if person B never really stops mapping and they have the same map rng, the person that maps the most, will earn more overall XP, then the person leaving to do quick trades.


If trades didn't take time, lets say if GGG added a way to complete the trade without leaving maps or requiring player interaction, with the later being obviously more "rewarding" then it becomes less of a factor, but still the one spending time listing items will always fall behind in XP.

Lets be honest here though, you aren't pushing the ladder and I doubt anyone you even know pushes the ladder, so the argument is pointless in itself when you bring up the ladder. About 10 people in each league cares about the ladder, about a dozen or two more want to reach 100 and put forth effort to eventually reach there. So whats the fucking point of the ladder anymore?

The perfect proof of concept would be a 1 week race, but even then you arent going to have the same RNG, so the test will never be possible because you are asking for something out of the realm of possibility.

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I have never said they should stop selling additional tabs, Premium tabs, or currency tabs. I bought a currency tab as soon as it was offered.

I don't even like the word "lie" in the thread title. Lying implies deliberately making untrue statements. My position is merely that GGG is making an untrue statement; I don't care about whether it's deliberate or not, I'd just prefer it fixed.

Why would they need to change the page if they don't believe anything has changed. Following the arugements presented in this thread regular stash tabs are P2W. If you play this game its wise you purchase a set of stash tabs, thats not hidden or p2w. It makes it easier for people that dont know what to keep and what not to. I remember picking up ever single 4 link item thinking I would need it, only later to discover I had a whole stash tab and didn't need it anymore.

In terms of p2w, if they follow some of the definitions of P2W it isn't. If they are following some twisted logic and that anything put into an impossible scope of definition, like you said above, then obviously I guess I can see why you think its flawed, but if you put it in a scope in itself that is impossible to actually happen, how on earth is GGG in the wrong for saying its not going to be p2w.

With P2W being defined as selling ingame items, selling XP boost, you know all the shit I told you about with marvel heros.

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First, urban dictionary isn't a reliable source of definitions.

Its a definition, if its just the webmaster's definition on that site it has to be as good if not better then yours right? I mean he publishes his at least.

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Second, the second definition fits. The effect is not massive, so additional and/or Premium tabs do not let you best players who are much more skilled than you, but they do enable you to best players who are only slightly more skilled than you. Which brings us to...

In what way. You have no way to compare a slightly better or slightly worst off player. Again your setting the scope in the limited fashion of the ladder race, which inherently is one of the only competitive elements in the game. But that isn't all inclusive and your "test" isn't a valid test.

Lets say I'm 20% better then you, but you have 20% more stash tabs then me. That doesn't break us even, I'm still better so my stash tabs are still going to effectively be priced better, I'm still going to spend less time PCing items and ultimately going to spend more time playing.

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Is this true with most player skill vs player skill comparisons? Yes. Is it true 100% of the time? No. A large amount of skill advantage is enough to offset tab advantage, but a small amount isn't.

You have no way to validate this point. Skilled players by now have stash tabs, I haven't meet a single person that is 90+ without a purchase of at least one stash tab bundle.

So basically by saying this, you invalidate the competitive nature of this argument and only are talking about the little guys. The more skilled players are naturally going to be more competitive. So if we are comparing ladder ranking 886 vs 900 with the 900 having purchased an additional stash tab bundle, they are still behind in the ladder, even if they have higher wealth.


See this game is like a scale, either you get XP or you get wealth. XP diminishes if you try to gain wealth and wealth diminishes when you try to gain XP only.





Bull fucking shit dude. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You must never have used acquisition before or something to make a statement like this saying it is false. But lets be honest here, you spend more times on the forums then you do playing the game so I guess I can understand why you would comeup with such an ignorant response to a statement you have no merit chiming in on.

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It's a shame that the usefulness of a feature is being held against it, just because it didn't come completely free.

Honestly this is what is most sad about this whole thing. So many people here already have premium\currency tabs, they are just bitching just to bitch, not even about anything really relevant in the game. About what one page says and what their own personal definitions of P2W is.

Yo Goetzjam, in the interest of some more constructive discussion, could you post your answers to the following questions?

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+ Would it be better for the community as a whole if the access to the main functionalities was free?
+ Does GGG need the cash that gating it provides (rather than the insincere debate about whether they need cash at all)?
+ Are further trade improvements going to require that players have premium tabs? If not, how are people that bought them going to react?
+ Were there other ways of implementing this that would have been better?