Pay 2 Win Premium Tabs Features - why GGG lies

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

You can with regular tabs price those items as well. I can set a tab wide buyout, for example I have one for 2c, 5c, 10c, ect. But if I put it in a 5c tab, doesn't matter if that is a tab wide buyout in game or acquisition, either way it gets listed and sold.

I have said, and will continue to use the same language, IN-GAME advantage. This is specific and specified because it eliminates the usage of 3rd party software as a basis for comparison. I am also not convinced it is faster to use a separate program to accomplish the same thing that can be done in-game with premium tabs. At best this would still require 1 additional step, assuming a person is comfortable with using said software, making it that much less convenient each time you use it.

Each time you use it? If you have additional regular tabs and follow any logical setup of tab wide b\o its not any additional time. In terms of learning the software, its literally quite idiot proof, are you suggesting that you haven't used acquisition before? Comfortable with the software? Its literally like any other software, if you are playing PoE, but too stupid to use acquisition, you are likely too stupid to play PoE.

If not how did you trade pre premium tabs?


In terms of in game advantage, acquisition if setup correctly is a once per league and basically never touch again piece of software really.

In game or out of game, it doesn't matter how you list your items, the trades are facilitated thru an indexer and people will eventually (or not) message you ingame for the items. Matters not the matter of listing both means net the same results. Having used both methods, acquisition and premium tabs, the only reason why I no longer use acquisition to list my items is because its already there. That being said if we had lets say 400 pieces of equipment to sell, with various tab wide buyouts and lets say a dozen of specific buyouts for items I could do it faster in acquisition then in game, that being said the time difference between the two isn't the important part, the fact that it is as easily possible as a free option is.


I made a thread a while ago asking GGG to integrate a system into the game to sell items, did I think it would require premium tabs, not really, does it make a difference for the people that actually support this game, not really, unless you are johnkeys because hes a special snowflake that needs no stash space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dCUFHpat08

5:40 - 6:48

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

See this game is like a scale, either you get XP or you get wealth. XP diminishes if you try to gain wealth and wealth diminishes when you try to gain XP only.

And this is exactly why the tabs are pay to win. You find something mediocre (or great) mapping. You dump the item when you grab your next map, someone PM's you 5 minutes into the next map for that very item, you trade with them a couple minutes later (WHEN YOU GO TO GRAB YOUR NEXT MAP), and get a nice bit of extra currency. If that isn't saving you time then nothing ever will. By allowing you to save time trading the tabs provide an advantage that players without them lack.
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You ignore that that EXACT situation has been happening for a long time using Acquisition. Apparently I won this game a long time ago.

I guess I could concede the argument that Premium tabs are p2w, assuming Acquisition usage. It is kinda janky that a third-party program emulates a paid feature, but that's an entirely different argument.

Additional tabs are still often p2w, though.

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W4rlord9 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dCUFHpat08

5:40 - 6:48

Joined today, posted today, can't even post under your main account.


Project PT is a fucking joke. Why people watch him (aside from his RIP videos) is beyond my understanding. He isn't knowledgeable he dies to the stupidest shit and is overall a bad player, I guess people can watch him knowing that they are better then him, if that is what gets you off so be it. But linking his response in here just further proves how dumb of an argument it is.

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I'm inclined to agree with you in this. I'm hoping that this is just the first step, and is somewhat of a 'beta' test of the trade features. Eventually I hope to see some kind of in-game trade interface for free players. IMO, it would be good for the community as a whole, and better for the game in the long run. I DO think that it would be better implemented as 100% free so that everyone can be involved in trading.

The issue I have with this is 2 fold. 1 we are discussing, apparently 2 seperate things in 1 thread. Because the 2 overlap. First off is premium tabs p2w or "giving an advantage" over players that don't use it. The other thing is are stash tabs in general p2w or that "advantage" again.

The thing is people make it out to be as if the only way you can trade is with a fuck ton of stash tabs, that simply isn't the case. Acquisition works very well with 4 or 40+, its all about how you as a player are organized.

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I never used Acquisition (used procurement instead), but I do think the new public API is leaps and bounds better than Procurement at least. It's a massive improvement to not have to use 3rd party stuff. Not only that, but it partially gets us away from 3rd party stuff in general, which was never a great solution anyway.

I have not used procurement in a very very long time, acquisition was for me so much simpler and easier to do what I wanted. Procurement started adding features, but it overall loads slower and performs worst. In terms of 3rd party or not that isn't the argument here, the argument here is can you trade without premium tabs, yes can you trade basically as easily, yes (at least from my point of view)

In terms of it being a great solution or not. It is a solution and it worked for years, the issue has for the most part always been with how to approach buying, some people want it stupid easy and automated while others want to preserve a little bit of the economy.

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Yeah, it would suck if GGG sold stuff and then later gave it away for free. UNLESS! It is portrayed as a beta that supporters were able to access before free players, as you stated before (kinda). I would also like to see them stop selling basic tabs since they're so inferior to premium tabs, that's a good idea.

It wasn't portrayed as that. I said it was simply an option they could have went with instead. As for stopping the sell of regular tabs, it only is logical, before it was just fancy names and colors which helped you organized, now its a bit more, even if those features are available outside the game it isn't logical to specifically sell a subpar product, even if its cheaper.

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I would agree with you that further improvements would be best without needing premium tabs. You are correct in saying that people buying these tabs should only get what they paid for (I paraphrased a bit, just understand that I agree with you about this).

Well they aren't owed anything else. If they get more I guess fine, but to expect more is the wrong idea.

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I don't think cross-instance trading will need tabs, either. I sure hope it doesn't, anyway. That would be pretty bad IMO.

Don't know how it could though.

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It seems as though we at least mostly agree. I think these changes could have been better implemented, or at the very least better explained in terms of what was going to be coming afterwards.

I think they were just rushed to get something out to help the players that helped them the most. Would it suck to be a free player and still use acquisition, I guess? To me it doesn't make a difference. Then again I don't see free players complaining here do I? Except that one dude that made a new account just to post the video of project joke face response.


I

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'm honestly not sure what the difference is between our views that makes me disapprove of these premium public tabs and you approve them.

My view is simple I approve of them because as long as support is their for the 3rd party programs you can do the same thing. You don't use acquisition, which I think is the biggest difference here. It was simple to use and last league after I setup the program I maybe touched it 2-3 times for items outside my usual scope of price.

Free players are entitled to the experience of the game in its fullest. Not paying doesn't restrict that or remove any options for a player, realistically. Can they horde less things, I guess? But overall hording doesn't actually do anything for me, the only league in which I truly horde is standard because playing in my self created sandbox is quite fun.

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You ignore that that EXACT situation has been happening for a long time using Acquisition. Apparently I won this game a long time ago.

Yep mark he doesn't get that acquisition does the same thing. Obviously you won u got 32 challenges.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I guess I could concede the argument that Premium tabs are p2w, assuming Acquisition usage. It is kinda janky that a third-party program emulates a paid feature, but that's an entirely different argument.

Additional tabs are still often p2w, though.

The paid feature actually emulates 3rd party programs, technically speaking they were first.


Why is often used here?



This to me seems like you are indicating it doesn't always apply, if it doesn't always apply then you can't call GGG a liar because there are cases (by your logic) in which it doesn't apply.


To you they are liars to me they aren't. Following the logic of the concession of acquisition vs premium tabs and the "janky fix" couldn't the same logic be applied to mule characters, mule accounts, ect?


Whats a stash tab bundle these days 25ish? 30 maybe for premium? If you spend 1\2 the cost of a triple AAA I guess you vastly improve your overall experience, but I'm not sure when experience improvement turned into p2w. This goes back to the whole arugment of technicalities and what is and isn't possible as a "free player"


What is possible is playing every aspect of the game, without being restricted from content, like currency, heros (classes), items, ect.

The ladder point you made earlier still has me laughing, sorry...

@goetzjam

I do not really see how are you qualified to call out other players like that.
People do all sorts of shit they want for whatever reason they want, you putting them all into one stereotype and insulting both ProjectPT and his viewers at the same time just goes to show what kind of person you are, not him.

Also not that I am against long & good discussions but hell man, didn't you hear about the phrase "less is more" ?
I feel like the best arguments can be made in 2-3 good put sentences not novels.

I really admire the zeal at which you wear your white knight armor but honestly you are just being so aggressive with your posts lately that it's just diminishing your arguments.

I have never watched Project PT but I ALWAYS see people talking about him negatively. Maybe why I don't watch? ;)

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I guess I could concede the argument that Premium tabs are p2w, assuming Acquisition usage. It is kinda janky that a third-party program emulates a paid feature, but that's an entirely different argument.

Additional tabs are still often p2w, though.

It's still p2w. Technically premium tabs are easier to use which is an advantage.

Also you can't force people between paying for a first party option or using third party which they may be uncomfortable with, unable to learn or use for w/e reason etc and try to manipulate that into being an equal free alternative just to hide a pay wall lol. I mean people are going to see right through that.

And there's not really a space for them to offer a free 1st party alternative so from that perspective I can see why people are upset by it.

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goetzjam wrote:

My view is simple I approve of them because as long as support is their for the 3rd party programs you can do the same thing. You don't use acquisition, which I think is the biggest difference here. It was simple to use and last league after I setup the program I maybe touched it 2-3 times for items outside my usual scope of price.

Ah, that's the difference. You're fine with 3rd party apps, while I am of the opinion that they shouldn't exist in the first place.

IMO, they were a fine stopgap measure while GGG worked on getting actual in-game trade up and running. They worked okay, though the load on the forums was questionable at best. However, I do not think they should be used as a long-term solution, even if only free players use them.

Where I appear to differ from a lot of people on this issue is that I feel that GGG should move completely away from 3rd party apps and move all trade interfaces in-game. I thought this was a majority opinion, but it appears to not be so.

I realize that they've at least started to do exactly that, and that's what worries me. Will GGG's indexer trawl the forums for item listings? I highly doubt it- that would be wildly inefficient, especially when they've just created this fancy new API for in-game listing. So, if the current system is kept as-is with only premium tabs allowing in-game listing, only paying players will be able to list items.

It's not like people are going to keep using poe.trade once the GGG 'indexer' comes out (unless the GGG indexer SUCKS). When that happens, there won't be any way for free players to list their items effectively. I don't want that, and I don't think anyone could honestly say they want that either. That's why so many people have brought it up now- so we can discuss it before it is actually implemented.

I realize that GGG has said that support will continue for the third party applications. However, what I'm saying is that it is unlikely for support to continue if/when GGG creates their own 'indexer'. If my 'doomsday' scenario happens (which it very well could, given only what we know now), we'll have something far worse IMO than p2w ever was. It'll be pay-to-trade, which is a straight up scam.

Now, this is easy to fix, and there are tons of ways to fix it. Even if Acquisition just became a 1st-party app, made and published by GGG, and GGG's indexer used it, that would solve the problem IMO. They could give out 1 free premium tab, or an upgrade. They could allow normal tabs to trade (yes, this would be difficult and may cause backlash, but it's still an option).

At the most basic level, all I want (I won't speak for the others arguing against premium tab trading) is for there to be a way for free players to list items using only resources provided by GGG. Ideally they would be in-game resources.