Labyrinth - 10 minute run and few tips for people who struggle

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sidtherat wrote:

@tmaciak

have you tried the lab at all? it is piss easy

Yes, in normal, on my temp league marauder, on second attempt, first time I lagged on spikes, because you know, somebody has to test GGG shit. Returned few levels later to oneshot Izaro. Took like 15 minutes with smoke break in between. Will do it in Cruel and Merc and hope to never visit that crap again.

On my only specced Standard character I DCed in the middle and after this, I postponed plans for respeccing my other characters until 2.3, as doing more Labs run is over my patience.

Anyway, hopefully Blood and Wine is close by, so taking a break when it hits. There I can skip Gwent entirely, if I don't like cards games.

I don't know Sid, you seem to be intelligent, but is it really so hard to understand, that I'm against Labyrinth not because I'm not capable to pass it, but because I just hate such platform mini games?

I skip those in any game I play. But only in PoE important character progression is gated behind it.

I also dislike Atziri and never attempted her, even if I have quite few builds capable to take even Uber down and gear to create few more. But Atziri doesn't gate anything important, except few uniques, maybe nice but not crucial. On the other hand, ascendancy classes are important.

And nobody here is voting for removing Labirynth, you like it, fine. But why force it on those who doesn't like it?

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And nobody here is voting for removing Labirynth, you like it, fine. But why force it on those who doesn't like it?

maybe because that is the only way to curb the power creep by the way of removing full banana 3k hp 1.5mil dps builds driven by less-than-skilled gamers? game balanced around logouts is a dumb concept and this is as soft as possible way of fixing it.

please note that i do not question or dispute people liking it or not - it is a taste and everybody has its own.
this post was to show people that lab is not difficult and that it is an end-end game content for min-max DETERMINISTIC farming.

it is most probably the glimps into map 2.0 system. while i understand some do not like it - it is most likely not only staying but replacing maps altogether. no more 'content gated behind rng drops'. d3 did rifts well. and this is something between maps and rifts.

note: this game also has trading that is pretty much forced on players. partying that gives HUGE benefits. i know what you want to say - expansion gated behind non-poe-classic experience - but there are already things others have to xope with to gain benefits.

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sidtherat wrote:

maybe because that is the only way to curb the power creep by the way of removing full banana 3k hp 1.5mil dps builds driven by less-than-skilled gamers? game balanced around logouts is a dumb concept and this is as soft as possible way of fixing it.

If so, why traps deal relatively the same damage to those 3K glass cannon as to 10K tanks?

As you personally noticed, being tank is small to no advantage in Lab, so how it is way to remove "full banana" glass cannon build?

It's quite reverse, such builds have advantage in Lab, because being tanky doesn't help for traps while having DPS helps immensely with Izaro, just one shot him and don't care what his daily specialties are.

I can bet, that speed runs leaderboards will be led, at least in SC, by full banana glass cannons, fast and having one-shot-Izaro capabilities.

Another contradiction is, that on one hand you say, that I should not make fuss about Lab, as it's peasy weasy but on the other, you say that it promotes skill.

What skill, of using quicksilver flask or so?

Because the white knights of ignorance still dont get the point.

1) Never before an expansion gated the most vital, enganging and core aspect of PoE - the SKILL TREE. The labyrinth does and for only one single arrogant reason. Because if it didnt NOBODY will give a shit about the damn thing for more than a month (and im being extremely generous) and GGG's effort would be for nothing.

2) The mechanics and theme of the labyrinth are totally not fit for PoE. In my alpha feedback i said it reminded me of Neverwinter Nights and i totally want to take that back because the feeling is more like Mario and Contra. Mechanically you have to learn traps and the way the work, and then with the right timing use a movement skill to bypass an obstacle. If anyone of you doesnt know Contra and Mario please check them and see the obvious similarities. They are obviously not Hack and Slash games like PoE and here lies another problem, why PoE tries to be something its not? Whats next? Put horse/rhoa races similar to car racing games? Or put strategy game elements and we have to build army, houses, barracks and a town hall to vanquish out opponents?

3) Next we have a totally absurd designing fail. We all know PoE is way to unstable, uncustomizable, full of bugs and crashes, glitches and a fuckton of similar problems. Now GGG for a reason they think valid, decided that trap dmg is %. So in case of a spike in latency, HC players must forfeit their character to a 33lvl trap. GREAT DESIGN. You understand that the traps beside negating gear (which is fine by me) COMPLETELY NEGATE THE SKILL TREE CHOISES? You probably never thought it in that way, but for any decent HC player traps negate approximatelly 60% of his skill tree (if not more)

4) I understand that there are some people that for whatever reason (or no reason at all, fun doesnt require reason after all) actually enjoy this mini-game labyrinth provides. Labyrinth exclusive uniques, strong enhanchments and treasure chests at the end of the labyrinth. Cool keep all of them and the enjoyment of playing Mario with PoE skills and graphics. The AC points why do they have to be linked to that ?

5) If AC points were locked/gated behind Atziri or Rigwald how do you think the community would respond? How you white knights would respond? I for once would hold the same stance im holding now. Because something so vital to the gameplay cannot and SHOULD NOT be gated behind anything. I understand GGG wants to put the spotlight in their newest addition to the game, but they have to realise that this is one HUGE-ASS mistake. Give labyrinth runners alt art items, or mortal hopes or 30cm increase on their e-penis i dont care but dont deny the rest of us the chance to have fun with something that is clearly one of the biggest (probably the biggest) changes in PoE, obviously im talking about AC.

6) For those here long enough, let me remind you something that is much less iconic than the skill tree and even when that was gated people rioted. Do you remember when two of the most iconic uniques in PoE were gated to drop only in maps? Im talking about Kaom's Heart and Shavvrone's Wrappings. The outrage for those iconic uniques that had grown famous and legendary beyond anything else back at the day was so great that GGG shortly after their huge mistake, undid it and everyone was happy again. And we are talking about 2 unique items here! You understand how big of a change gating THE SKILL TREE is ? I dont think you do. Because if you did you would agree on removing AC points from labyrinth this instant.

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鬼殺し wrote:

One thought I had is teamwork. Couldn't a well-coordinated party split up, with one person entering side room like key areas while another figures out the quickest route to Izaro? I'd expect comms to be essential, of course. Also, given they're separate instances, this would also mean the difficulty of the mobs would be tuned to just the person in there. You'd get the benefit of teamwork but not the usual drawback.

What would be cool was if there was an awesome guild. Maybe one set up for old timers like us, with maybe kiwis and rhoas? ;)

I'd probably consider getting a headset just for that. Random parties can be nice, but people don't usually know how to stick together.


-VG-

I'd be more than happy to help stuck people with Labyrinths if needed.


Peace,

-Salacious B Crumb-

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Iceclad wrote:

Some day there will be no Cruel, which means less times to run through everything.

Personally, I'm kind of hoping they keep the name "Cruel" and just apply it to what we currently call "Normal" ... Cruel and Merciless sounds a lot better to me than either Normal and Cruel or Normal and Merciless. But eh...


-VG-

how about abnormal and merciless?

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sidtherat wrote:

labyrinth is already VERY easy. Izaro fight is the most difficult part of it but people in HC are doing him self found no problems. there is really no need to making it easier.

id likw to see a video of someone failing a lab run due to it being 'too difficult' as opposed to 'player mistake, rush, carelessnes, lack of any skill nor situational awareness'

Gotta include lag in there. It kills me every time on second form. Or maybe I just don't know how to deal with him well enough ... but surely the lag doesn't help.


-VG-


PS ... and xrook, that's a pretty good idea. :)

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tmaciak wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

maybe because that is the only way to curb the power creep by the way of removing full banana 3k hp 1.5mil dps builds driven by less-than-skilled gamers? game balanced around logouts is a dumb concept and this is as soft as possible way of fixing it.

If so, why traps deal relatively the same damage to those 3K glass cannon as to 10K tanks?

As you personally noticed, being tank is small to no advantage in Lab, so how it is way to remove "full banana" glass cannon build?

It's quite reverse, such builds have advantage in Lab, because being tanky doesn't help for traps while having DPS helps immensely with Izaro, just one shot him and don't care what his daily specialties are.

I can bet, that speed runs leaderboards will be led, at least in SC, by full banana glass cannons, fast and having one-shot-Izaro capabilities.

Another contradiction is, that on one hand you say, that I should not make fuss about Lab, as it's peasy weasy but on the other, you say that it promotes skill.

What skill, of using quicksilver flask or so?

like or not - yes. however you make it look dumb on purpose and you know it.

lab is a deterministic farming environment. there are 'specials' (like keepers of the amulet yesterday) you can choose to farm or not. there are extra keys you might want to use or not. you think that it is all irrelevant because it is easy. it is easy to complete - so people who do not like it might be done with it in 20 minutes and be back to map grind.

but it is a hell of a system to master (that is - min max it, completing it is not even worth talking about). this is like racing - if youve done that. anybody can do a track in lets say 2 minutes/per. after a week or so they can get it down to 1:50. but pros are doing it in 1:38. these 12 seconds take years to master or a special gift some have and some dont. im aiming at that 1:38. this is the skill im talking about. you call it quicksilvering - but you know that it is a lot more than that.

lab finally gives players like me a chance to experience that kind of a skill based content in this game. because all else POE offers is gear check and trade check (or grinding for ages).



i understand the 'content is locked behind something i do not like'. it is not the first time it is this way however - Rigwald's lair locked behind MONSTROUS grind (or trade), Atziri locked behind sac frags etc. I know that this time the tree itself is locked but lets be realistic - the hysteria is out of proportion. just do it. these points are rewards and GGG has set the challenge like that.

note - the 'platform' level you claim entire labyrinth is created off - is a lie. the 'puzzles' are sparse, there are only few areas with traps (And the more i think the more i see it - there is always a trap-free path to the door), there are more mobs there than in typical maps, rare/magic pack ratio is comparable with Dried Lake. you are doing A LOT of killing down there with few SIMPLE as F.. puzzles mixed inbetween. do not make it look that you have to write an essay, paint something and master linear algebra to get these points.