I still think map drops are fine - boost drops and good players can do 79++ all day long

The big issue here is that they decided to make the climb up in levels even more tedious.

With every rare being able to drop +2 dropping back a level due to bad luck wasn't that punishing, because it was also possible to find 2 or sometimes even 3 maps with +2. It wasn't common, but you had the possibility to get lucky with a map, this possibility is now gone, since only the boss can drop +2. Technically this can still result in multiple +2 (I assume a boss can drop a +2 and get the extra +2 for being a boss, I have already seen this in Museum with the 3 bosses dropping 2 +2, but it is incredible rare (actually it was the only time I have seen a boss drop 2 maps at all).

Even if a boss has a safe map-drop it is very likely that it would not be a +2, but it would reduce the currency pressure, since even a bad rolled map would give you one certain map-drop.


Unless they find a way to make it equally possible for solo-players and groups to roll maps or at least make them closer the system can't work. Either mapping is too easy for groups or too hard for solo-players with the current system. And you can't adjust the droprate for this if the differences between solo and group-play remain as big as they are now.

They could do certain things to make mapping less frustrating for solo-players:

1. Reduce the Quantity-Bonus for Groups
2. Make Map-drops less dependend on the Map-rolls
3. Increase the ability to drop higher maps

I don't really understand what they wanted to achieve with the new system. I agree that it should be honored if you kill a boss in a map. Thats fine. There was a very long discussion in the beta basically agreeing that they should allow bosses to drop +3. Instead of doing this they removed the ability of uniques and rares to drop +2. Considering that on average at least one out of two maps of the uniques/rares in a map dropped one map you got 0,5 maps from uniques/rares each map with the chance of being +2. From my experience about every 8th or so boss drops a map, so the chance to get a +2 is about 4 times lower. And Shifting the ability to drop higher maps from certain enemies upwards would allow people to get a high map every once in a while.

We currently have maps ranging from 68 to 82. We could use a +1 for blues, +2 for rares/uniques, +3 for bosses for the first few levels, or even the current system, since you go over these maps quite quickly anyway. If they don't want people to get to difficult maps too quickly they shouldn't make maps like Pit, Desert or Dungeon, those bosses are harder than all 69 and 70 maps except Museum.

Starting with 73 I would increase the ability to get higher maps a bit, blue +1, rare +2, uniques +3, boss +4. And reaching towards the endgame maps this could be increased further. There is no reason to not drop a 82 map in a 78 map. Maps don't have linear difficulty increases, the scaling of mobs might be, but it heavily depends on the boss and the enemies you get within the map. Allowing players to climb higher makes it less punishing to drop down a few levels. If even a lvl75 map could give you a lvl80 map you wouldn't be that worried to drop from 77 to 75. Doing this would still not solve the issue, that maps are incredible punishing for solo-players. But it would make it less punishing to not being able to sustain a certain level, since a lucky +4 drop might allow you to do a high map at least once every while.
I still think that the answer to group/solo play balance is to substantially reduce (by a factor of 5-6) the Zana mod costs and make them a per-portal cost with a max of six portals.

The biggest reason groups get an advantage in mapping is the ability to split zana costs up... a system like this would get rid of the advantage and essentially balance it out.
The 352nd character to hit Level 100 in Standard
The 82nd character to hit Delve 1000 in Standard
Last edited by tackle70 on Aug 5, 2015, 12:15:51 PM
"
Emphasy wrote:
They could do certain things to make mapping less frustrating for solo-players:

1. Reduce the Quantity-Bonus for Groups
2. Make Map-drops less dependend on the Map-rolls
3. Increase the ability to drop higher maps


Being in a party increases the quantity, I see that. I really hope it does not increase the chances of maps dropping?

As for your other suggestions, I think the +3 map drop idea is not that great, it makes things more random. It is only the road to go if they for some reason really want everyone to be stuck in 75-77 maps. In my opinion, the amount of RNG should be reduced, not increased.

Apart from that, the easy solution to make things more bearable for players that are new, casual or just dont want to / dont have the currency to spend lots of chaos on each map would be to:

- make map progression easier until maps of 78 or 79
- make map progression harder above that


"
tackle70 wrote:
I still think that the answer to group/solo play balance is to substantially reduce (by a factor of 5-6) the Zana mod costs and make them a per-portal cost with a max of six portals.


That is one of the most intelligent suggestions I have heard here in a while, I did not even think of that.
Remove Horticrafting station storage limit.
I am NOT in game rich. I am only able to alc 74's and above. and really only able to throw 1 or 2 chaos at 76+ in order to get %80+ quantity. I dont care what mods happen, my build can run them all. Especially this far under level (I'm 87). Most of the time I am literally running 72-73 maps. When two or three 74 maps drop I run them.

Last night I finally ran my first 77 map (necropolis) I had found a while back but had been saving just because I liked looking at it in my stash. I used the only 2 chisels I had, alc'ed it, then threw 4 chaos just to get 80+ on it. That map cost me what, 5-6c to run?

For the cost of 5-6c I got ONE LEVEL 73 MAP.

I absolutely breezed through it. Mods included +damage, 3 projectiles, faster attacks, and other things. There were 2 damage spikes that ALMOST made me pee a little FROM STUPID BLUE MOBS, but I guess I lucked out and didn't get one shotted. Ice lady was an easy take down.
-------------------------------------------

If GGG wants to make it so that you no longer have fun playing this game once you pass a certain level unless you have endless currency in game then they should pat themselves on the back. They are very successful.

At this point a level 76 map is a pipe-dream for me. I was momentarily furious when I found out that all the hard work I am putting into Zana so I could at least run 76 maps once a day was ALSO trashed by GGG. THERE IS NO REASON FOR HER TO HAVE A PUNISHING XP REQUIREMENT FOR LEVELS NOW, SHE IS POINTLESS. I cant afford her map mods, and I already have 72 and 73 mas.

A little note to GGG: Not everyone in this game has a lot of in game currency. Certainly not a lot to throw at maps when they need to buy gear TO RUN maps. And, not everyone (anyone?) in game is willing to allow you to, free of charge, group in on their high level maps to leech XPs and hopefully find a map.

EDIT: PS> OP is a troll, obviously. The problem is this nerve is so raw that striking it causes 21 pages of troll feeding.
Last edited by Shinare on Aug 5, 2015, 1:47:04 PM
^ yea, the amount of orbs you need to throw at maps is outrageous now. Unless you have a very big pool, full chisel 76+ is a must (if you build your pool yourself, even earlier). Most if not all of them must be vaaled too. at 77+ it's time to add sac frags. You wont ever find enough chis, vaal or sac. frag yourself.

I can pump some serious hours into the game, but when it comes to wealth I'm below average too, cause I just dont like trading. I was lucky to loot a Rathpith & Divinarius early in league, which gave me the "budget" to be able to play the game. It sounds ridiculous to me... "budget management", "financial planning", "investment risk estimates"... just to be able to slay some monsters appropriate to your char level, haha... lol -_-
When night falls
She cloaks the world
In impenetrable darkness
Bought 15 75s in warbands. Full chiseld/ alced them all. Ran every mod that came out in every combo. Down to 4 75s now, got 3 76s, 1 77, 1 78 (wich i'll prolly sell).

The pool is melting away, and i simply dont want to buy maps for one or two ex every three days, not to mention the alcs and chisels. (I'm talking about 75/76 maps here, not even the real engame stuff). That's silly expensive.
dedadadadedoodoodoo is all i want to say to you
I just ran these 6 maps, they were my last 78's (corrupted one into that village ruins). I didn't skip a boss, but I didn't get a map drop from any bosses anyway.

Spoiler


These are the map returns
Spoiler


So I am just barely hitting the point of sustention, at the cost of tens of chaos per map. I don't think this is okay. While the map drops might be sustainable at this level of investment, the level of investment required is not sustainable. Also worth noting, I didn't get any +0 or above from that legacy courtyard, all the 78's came from the village ruin, crema, and the high iiq springs.
IGN: WeenieHuttSenior
US East
"
tackle70 wrote:
Over 200 maps in on my 77+ mapping. As you can see, I've been dumping some serious currency on my map rolls.

All those maps, unless otherwise noted, are new maps, not legacy. I've not bought any maps.

Rolling maps the way I've been doing appears to put you right around 77 sustainable, with a good streak of RNG having potential to build your 77 pool a bit and a bad RNG streak having potential to eat up your 77s and send you back to 76.

I think that a lot of people cannot sustain the type of expense I've been throwing into my maps, and I think these results show that the expense really isn't worth it.

Map drops need a buff. I have a serious problem with the idea that you can invest as much in running maps as I've been doing and yet you remain limited to mid tier maps most of the time.


So, according to your data, you have about a 19.07% chance to get a map drop of +0 or greater. With an average of 3 map drops per map, that puts you at a 46.99% chance to sustain, and that is at the absurd level of investment you're putting into your maps.
IGN: WeenieHuttSenior
US East
"
Caustic2 wrote:
"
tackle70 wrote:
Over 200 maps in on my 77+ mapping. As you can see, I've been dumping some serious currency on my map rolls.

All those maps, unless otherwise noted, are new maps, not legacy. I've not bought any maps.

Rolling maps the way I've been doing appears to put you right around 77 sustainable, with a good streak of RNG having potential to build your 77 pool a bit and a bad RNG streak having potential to eat up your 77s and send you back to 76.

I think that a lot of people cannot sustain the type of expense I've been throwing into my maps, and I think these results show that the expense really isn't worth it.

Map drops need a buff. I have a serious problem with the idea that you can invest as much in running maps as I've been doing and yet you remain limited to mid tier maps most of the time.


So, according to your data, you have about a 19.07% chance to get a map drop of +0 or greater. With an average of 3 map drops per map, that puts you at a 46.99% chance to sustain, and that is at the absurd level of investment you're putting into your maps.


That's a little bit of a deceptive way to read the data since it yield's a 46.99% chance to sustain an arbitrary map level (whatever your avg map level is - in my case just over 78). The better way to look at sustain is this: What is the chance to get maps of level 82 down to {x} during my maps? At whatever level {x} gives you a result >= 100%, that's the level you can sustain indefinitely.

On my data, it's right around 77, as I've had a ~95% chance across all my maps to receive a 77 map or higher. I've started Zana modding much more frequently, as you can see (this was due to running out of 77 maps when zana modding infrequently), and I expect that number to cross above 100% before long.

But sustaining 78+ seems not possible indefinitely.
The 352nd character to hit Level 100 in Standard
The 82nd character to hit Delve 1000 in Standard
Last edited by tackle70 on Aug 5, 2015, 2:49:35 PM
Having an endgame system that relies entirely on RNG smells like a bad game design.
If you're not doing 76 maps it should not be because you haven't seen a 76 map drop in a month, it should be because your character is weak and stuff kills you. Then it gives you a goal - find a way to improve yourself and you will get there. Currently the goal is - farm more and faceroll everything until you get a luck streak and move up a map tier.
If you drop a tier it should not because the RNG screwed you over, it should be because you can't kill the boss for example and you naturally don't belong in the tier.
You can't make changes that apply equally both to the standard league and the temp leagues because they are very different, and you can't make changes because of the top players that can gather 100 exalts of currency in the first month and then progress to 82 maps by spending 10 chaos per map, mostly because they don't represent the majority. You are hurting the majority because you don't want a selected few to succeed in the game.
The current endgame system is not rewarding, I could run blue 72s and 73s and get more currency than if I spent 10 chaos per map to maintain 78s.
Last edited by morinius on Aug 5, 2015, 4:18:47 PM

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