I still think map drops are fine - boost drops and good players can do 79++ all day long

"

Crackmonster wrote:

They could maybe increase drop rates overall a little bit, but they really have to be careful because a big boost would break the system.

Which system? The currency black-hole one, or fun aRPG one?

Anyone agreeing that boosting drops would "break the system", must also agree that from PoE 1.02 to 1.3 mapping was "broken". I've been mapping in Domination (no cartobox or Zana back then), solo, chaining 76-78 with a fraction of orb investment I have to do now, to barely crawl.

Strangely, between 1.02 and 1.3, no one complained that they have too many maps to play and that the game is broken... But now that mapping has finally been fixed and +2 maps don't represent a deadly danger to exiles any more, all hell broke loose. :p

---

Also on the note of good rolls, until such GG-rolled lucky-vaal uber-171% total quantity maps..:



..will be able to drop only one lousy -4 map, then PoE endgame will feel less like a "proper video game" and more like online poker.

"

johnKeys wrote:

"

Crackmonster wrote:

They could maybe increase drop rates overall a little bit, but they really have to be careful because a big boost would break the system.

you know man, every single time someone uses the "but this would break the system/economy/<other>" argument, to justify some ridiculous anti-fun, RNG-content-gating mechanic - it makes me cringe.

I'm not one who can chain 76+ maps currently, for non-RNG reasons.
I just get one-shot. especially if some Act 4 monsters spawn.
before The Awakening, I made my home in 74-77 range maps and similar-area Zana missions, with my two main chars on Standard. even the other chars got an occasional map run there.
now I'll probably need 2x the HP, not rely on leech so much, and not being Evasion because it got obliterated.

but we aren't talking about me, here.
we are talking about people who have level 90+ characters, can take that 76+ map, roll utterly insane "rip mods" on it, and actually clear it and kill the boss.
RNG makes sure, they have nothing to expect regardless of the fact they just had a near-death experience (especially true for Tempest/HC).
it always did. the decision of "player gets +1/2 map / -10 map / no map at all" always seemed completely fkn random.
but at least before The Awakening, you maybe got an in-map visit from Zana who gave you a +1 map with a chance of being Unique, or a sweet little Cartographer's Box that made your eyes shine.
now it doesn't seem to be the case, and quite frankly I think that's an utter dick move by GGG.
it's like giving a baby some sweet candy, then immediately taking it away.

now add in the fact 76-77 maps are no longer top tier but more like middle-tier - with barely enough EXP to even scratch the surface of a 90+ char's little finger - and the combination is the completely justified source of all rage.
it's anti-fun, pure and simple. there's no reason for this. none.

well actually there is a reason: GGG will bring back some of the fun eventually. they'll make a dramatic patch note out of it, and the fanboys of the first page in that thread will scream with joy, as if it's the next best things since sliced bread, as opposed to something that should have fkn been the default all along. and was. in 1.3.

This here is not some system of social/political agendas. This is just statistics. If you give the drop rates a substantial increase in all the high maps as well, we will see a shift where those doing 2-3 maps lower will do 2-3 levels higher map now.

That's the system here.

They fucked your system up themselves when they decided that they would add 79-82 maps as well. Because now, unlike before when 78 was the highest, it will do serious damage to heavily boost droprates, because too many will play higher maps than when 78 were the highest, breaking the leveling curse. Actually, that was a typo, but i left it in! :D

Some of you would say they should then just increase the xp required for max level, but what then is the point? Then they should have added most new maps as the higher 2-3 map levels so people could have fun in a lot more tilesets since droprates were set so u could run the highest most of the time.

They didn't, they clearly try to make maps where you don't go to the highest all the time work, and to do that, they only have the choice of balancing after those who can roll maps the best, the majority of players paying the price here. I am not saying i am the best map roller at all, just that whoever is the best sets the bar.

I'm not saying that OP is lucky and only sustains because of that or so. I believe that's how the new map system is supposed to work. He makes legit points, but only from his point of view. There's a couple things to consider when reading this post

1. OP plays standard, he has (or at least should have super insane gear with possible legacies), and can run way harder maps than one could run in temp leagues. He also doesn't have to worry about Warbands or Tempests that can and will add extra danger to maps.

2. OP already had a very good 77-78 map pool to start off from. The amount of maps to run and currency to burn to attain that kind of map pool is insane nowadays when starting from zero.

3. OP has and had a very large pool of orbs to roll (and possibly craft with Zana) the maps with. Again, obtaining this kind of wealth while at the same time trying to build your map pool (consuming wealth) takes a really long time.

So, Crackmonster, before making claims like this and saying everyone having problems is just bad, come and start off from a scratch as solo player in a temporary league or better yet, temporary hardcore league with extra rippyness from tempests and where every death is a game over (you really, really can't run those super high quantity maps constantly, if you want to stay alive with the state of damage in high level maps right now).

Just because it's doable (and even reasonable in standard) with already built map pool, wealth and gear, doesn't make it fine for temporary leagues. I believe most of the "whining" comes from temporary league players, and it's justified imo.

Edit: P.S. Just because I believe the map system is "working as intended" by GGG, it doesn't mean it's perfect. Breaking through from low maps to mid level maps and sustaining them (75 and 76 imo, even 77s) should be easier if one can run +100q maps on a constant basis.

What you are saying is something i mostly agree with.

Just some points you should consider though: When i run maps 75-77 i gain more currency on average by running them then i spend. That income is stable. However, a lot that comes in the form of jeweller's and fusing, something new players need to roll their items. They also want to buy new items.

When i started the game when trying to gain xp in maps i would never expect to earn on it, yes over time i would when i found expensive uniques, but to get my basic gear to get rolling i would do random maps or areas like docks. I still do docks when relaxing, and i found nothing wrong with that approach. To run high xp maps requires investment. I would run low maps all the time just to farm, and when i wanted to do a burst i ran my accumulated high maps.

So, in that way and many other ways the game is built around a standard(permanent) experience, where you can take advantage of the long term balance.

I will say this however, i have honed my map pool since release, and it has never looked better. You have to continue a high level of expenditure to get the fullest out of maps - you will get good drops if you keep doing, and you can sell those and level gems on the side, but to start out with - farm some basic gear, don't expect to run the highest maintainable maps without spending - that is why they are the highest maintainable maps, you have to do all you can to maintain them to the point where you could not spend more - making them the highest sustainable.

Also - on new leagues you can sell FAR more items, which is a massive advantage.

You know they could cut map drop rates further in half and someone would still make a thread like OP.

No matter how you slice it, the cost of sustaining endgame maps has objectively increased in 2.0, so has the frustration due to map crashes/disconnects. Some players will enjoy that, others won't.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

What you are saying is something i mostly agree with.

Just some points you should consider though: When i run maps 75-77 i gain more currency on average by running them then i spend. That income is stable. However, a lot that comes in the form of jeweller's and fusing, something new players need to roll their items. They also want to buy new items.

When i started the game when trying to gain xp in maps i would never expect to earn on it, yes over time i would when i found expensive uniques, but to get my basic gear to get rolling i would do random maps or areas like docks. I still do docks when relaxing, and i found nothing wrong with that approach. To run high xp maps requires investment. I would run low maps all the time just to farm, and when i wanted to do a burst i ran my accumulated high maps.

So, in that way and many other ways the game is built around a standard(permanent) experience, where you can take advantage of the long term balance.

I will say this however, i have honed my map pool since release, and it has never looked better. You have to continue a high level of expenditure to get the fullest out of maps - you will get good drops if you keep doing, and you can sell those and level gems on the side, but to start out with - farm some basic gear, don't expect to run the highest maintainable maps without spending - that is why they are the highest maintainable maps, you have to do all you can to maintain them to the point where you could not spend more - making them the highest sustainable.

So ultimately we all agree here? What's the 20 page flamewar for?

-> The currency and time sink to gear up and build a MID LEVEL map pool from scratch simultaneously is a bit unreasonable at the moment for new league and new players. Not impossible (exaggeration happens), but unreasonable.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

Also - on new leagues you can sell FAR more items, which is a massive advantage.

So come and pull it off. Till then you can only provide feedback from your side which is one-sided. My feedback and suggestion (having seen both sides) is to add slightly more +1 map drops from map levels ranging from 68 to 74-75. The content at higher maps is more deadly than ever, there's really no harm to let people farm 75-77 pool with ease if they're able to run 100q+ maps.

I have sold many items there, i played 2-3 new seasons from my memory, maybe i will some other time but not these and not for more than a month..

Don't try this, new seasons are easy to trade items in.

Also, there is no flamewar.

There is only a war for consciousness.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

I have sold many items there, i played 2-3 new seasons from my memory, maybe i will some other time but not these and not for more than a month..

Don't try this, new seasons are easy to trade items in.

Also, there is no flamewar.

There is only a war for consciousness.

In leagues where sustaining pool was as easy as alting packsize/magic mobs. It's way harder now and risk of dying is higher than ever. I don't try anything, I speak from my experience as do you.

Anyway, I'm done with this. The mapping experience is a bit off and I honestly expect GGG to adjust it later on. As Chris said himself, it's easier to start with giving too little and then adjust it than the other way around.

If you look at op i've made suggestions based other posters like you to increase drop rates in 74 maps and down a good deal.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

Temporary leagues or not is completely irrelevant in how hard sustaining maps is, just to get the facts straight. Map drops must be balanced for an over-time average.

However well meaning your post is, it will not change the fact that the bulk of issues lies in people not rolling maps adequately and expects the rng to be set so they can go just as high as they would like.

...

I personally do not believe more than 76-78 maps should be more more or less sustainable(unless you want to adjust xp formulas) which they currently are, that is probably the level most skilled map rollers will end up at(sorry couldn't help it ;D).

They could maybe increase drop rates overall a little bit, but they really have to be careful because a big boost would break the system.

Stop this bullshit already.

People know how to roll maps. There is no secret to it in 2.0 nor there was any in 1.3. It is not the rolls that people have problems with, it is the currency costs that people have issues to bear. How hard it is to roll map by dropping 4 chisels on it first than use Alchemy orb to make it rare and spend Chaos orbs on it until your get as high quantity and pack size as possible? You will use Vaal orb for high level maps in hope to get positive results. There is nothing difficult on the above process apart from its costs and the fact your are relying on RNG when you Vaal the final map, which can also result in total brick of the map while you already blew several Chaos worth of currency on it.

Sustainability is not only question of rolling map and getting another map, ideally higher level, from it. It is also matter of how much such activity cost. It is very clear that RNG with map drops and high costs of rolling even mid-tier maps are the issue most people have.

It is not irrelevant whether you are in Standard with 200 Exalts in your stash or in new challenge league. In fact it matters all the more because who will play this game in 2 years time if only standard trade moguls can afford to map. Drop rates need to be balanced with overall economy in mind, it can not be solely left there because markets are inherently imbalanced. Moreover, people will start losing interest in the game if the balancing is done in millions of events because nobody can realistically expect to run million maps in their game time. This means there will be people who will be on top of RNG train but there will be people who will be tossed under that train. There is currently lot of people close or under the train especially if you look into challenge leagues. Drop rates must also reflect the fact large amount of this game population is in challenge leagues. If current mapping system means mapping is not sustainable for large majority of challenge league players, I start to fear about future of challenge leagues at first and the game overall later.

TLDR:
I know how to roll maps, so do most of other people.
I have issue with map drops as well as associated costs of running maps.
Challenge leagues are important part of PoE and should be taken into consideration when balancing drop rates.