Reduce end game Attack/Cast speed

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I liked the other thread that had a charge up mechanic that would work as a support gem, idk if its possible to add, but I think something like that would help. That being said I don't think nerfing multistrike would the the route to "fix" your concern in the meantime.

Oh, it isn't, really. Slow build viability is a separate problem. I adressed it for balance reasons, and I'm after multistrike for aesthetical reasons.

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I personally would hate this change, even if I didn't use either of of the gems its called multistrike and echo not doublestrike and doublecast.

I'm willing to be fairly flexible on naming :)

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goetzjam wrote:

I don't get this circle jerk about multistrike all the sudden, first on reddit now here.

I had no idea about this, I guess more people feel that multistrike feels like shit and looks ridiculous.

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goetzjam wrote:

Hell no, in no way should the maximum dps be the same across the board, PoE limits things by the roll you can get on gear, tree and gems and should leave it at that. Its up to the players to make the gearing selection, passive tree and gems they should use for whatever build they want.

It should not be all 100% the same, obviously.
And it should obviously still depend on gear quality, on how much you invest in offense/defense in the tree etc.

But all listed playstyles should be able to achieve the same DpS, given the same gear quality and passive tree investment (points in damage).
In PoE, the difference between fast/slow and crit/noncrit is insane.

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You are comparing a flat damage roll, which of course scales with attack speed, if there was a mod for %phys instead of just flat that might make your build better, perhaps thats a suggestion you all should be making instead of reducing attackspeed.

And that's what I am calling "lazy design".
A "flat damage" affix is the easy raod to take. But it leads to serious balance issues.

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In regards to 5k dps, thats the problem here you are comparing tooltips, across different builds\playstyles\weapons....back to the whole apples vs oranges.

Both my marauders stand there and punch monsters.
How is this comparing apples and oranges?
Why should one of them profit and the other shouldn't?

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The "cost" of going crit isn't as minimal as you mention it to be. Crit requires investment across the board, whereas a slower attack build such as RT requires traversing to it on the tree and thats it, don't need crit rolls on gear, don't need quality gems, it just works.

Crit items are more expensive because crit is better.
This shouldn't be.
Crit gems need quality because their quality is better than on non crit gems (hooray, 10% increased physica damage).
This shouldn't be.

If there were any balance between playstyles (and I wish there were), RT builds would be as efficient, but also as expensive as crit builds.

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raics wrote:

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I liked the other thread that had a charge up mechanic that would work as a support gem, idk if its possible to add, but I think something like that would help. That being said I don't think nerfing multistrike would the the route to "fix" your concern in the meantime.

Oh, it isn't, really. Slow build viability is a separate problem. I adressed it for balance reasons, and I'm after multistrike for aesthetical reasons.

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I personally would hate this change, even if I didn't use either of of the gems its called multistrike and echo not doublestrike and doublecast.

I'm willing to be fairly flexible on naming :)

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goetzjam wrote:

I don't get this circle jerk about multistrike all the sudden, first on reddit now here.

I had no idea about this, I guess more people feel that multistrike feels like shit and looks ridiculous.

Then don't use it....

There problem solved, no really its solved if you don't like it don't use it and refuse to party with anyone that does.

In all seriousness I am just going to have to agree to disagree with you here thinking multistrike needs nerfed. Echo could probably use a little toning down, but then again spell casters got dumpstered in the beta and the most OP skill with it no longer works.

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But all listed playstyles should be able to achieve the same DpS, given the same gear quality and passive tree investment (points in damage).
In PoE, the difference between fast/slow and crit/noncrit is pathetic.

Its not possible, you are wanting a non crit slow hitting build to achieve the same DPS of a build that will utilize all the DPS rolls on a weapon vs just 1/2 of them?

The gear quality is severely different, the options to scale your phys hits from slower weapons aren't there so of course a build that invest into damage across the board will be better then one that only can invest where they can.

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And that's what I am calling "lazy design".
A "flat damage" affix is the easy raod to take. But it leads to serious balance issues.

Its not lazy design, perhaps they overlooked people wanting to attack slower and scale that damage...

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Both my marauders stand there and punch monsters.
How is this comparing apples and oranges?
Why should one of them profit and the other shouldn't?

Give more information about the builds, obviously one is using a 2 hander and one is using 2 1 handers but I have no idea anything else about them to know why you think one is terrible and one isn't.

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Crit items are more expensive because crit is better.
This shouldn't be.
Crit gems need quality because their quality is better than on non crit gems (hooray, 10% increased physica damage).
This shouldn't be.

ROFL ok I can't take you seriously anymore. Not every single crit item is more expensive. Some go for really cheap IMO.

Take a crit weapon for example, if you take the rolls it can get.
phys
%phys
hybrid

All of those can be used and are desired for pretty much any playstyle, now take crit specfic
crit multi
crit chance

And of course:
attackspeed

So if you want a "crit" weapon it must roll 5/6 of those IMO to be really good, so if you need 5/6 instead of lets say 3/6 chances are the 3/6 is going to be much cheaper as it doesn't have the rolls needed to scale higher. The 5/6 is already good.

This has more to do with rolls on items, then it does on playstyles.

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If there were any balance between playstyles (and I wish there were), RT builds would be as efficient, but also as expensive as crit builds.

There is a choice now. You can go RT AND NEVER MISS A SINGLE ATTACK EVER, the only downside is you cannot crit, but at the same time now you don't have to worry about accuracy, crit chance, crit multi on any gear at all. If you don't see how that isn't a positive then try playing a 2 handed build getting no accuracy on gear, gems or the tree and of course no RT.

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goetzjam wrote:

Then don't use it....

In all seriousness I am just going to have to agree to disagree with you here thinking multistrike needs nerfed.

Gladly, in the very same moment we get something decent to put in that socket.

I'm not really proposing a nerf here, my numbers for multistrike would be pretty much the same, similar dps, similar mana cost, it would just look a bit less epileptic... and have a bit worse synergy with 'on hit/crit' effects, nothing serious.

You know, I could also pretend it's perfect as it really isn't anything serious or gamebreaking, but I honestly think it can be better.

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goetzjam wrote:

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But all listed playstyles should be able to achieve the same DpS, given the same gear quality and passive tree investment (points in damage).
In PoE, the difference between fast/slow and crit/noncrit is pathetic.

Its not possible, you are wanting a non crit slow hitting build to achieve the same DPS of a build that will utilize all the DPS rolls on a weapon vs just 1/2 of them?

Of course it's not possible in the current state of the game.
That's the whole point of this thread (and many others).

That's why I suggested to turn the 3 dps suffixes into prefixes.
I'd also cut dagger base damage in half and/or remove increased damage passives for daggers, limit the melee physical damage gem to str based weapons or whatever.
-> Give one of them stable DpS, one of them spiky DpS (like crit should be), but give them equal DpS.

PoE hands everything to Crit and fast attacks, and nothing to the opposite.
And I think this is bad design and should be changed.

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Give more information about the builds, obviously one is using a 2 hander and one is using 2 1 handers but I have no idea anything else about them to know why you think one is terrible and one isn't.

Both get the job done, both are equally rich (since they share the same wealth), but the crit dude has four times the DpS (and in some game content this really matters, like Torture Chamber boss, killing her in 1-2 seconds or having to dodge her stuff makes all the difference).

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ROFL ok I can't take you seriously anymore. Not every single crit item is more expensive.

That's not what I wrote. Instead of trying to find mistakes, maybe try to understand what I want to tell you.

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There is a choice now. You can go RT AND NEVER MISS A SINGLE ATTACK EVER, the only downside is you cannot crit, but at the same time now you don't have to worry about accuracy, crit chance, crit multi on any gear at all. If you don't see how that isn't a positive then try playing a 2 handed build getting no accuracy on gear, gems or the tree.

I know I can do this, since I'm actually doing it.
Both of it, all of it.

I never had any problems getting crit rolls or accuracy.
It's not that hard to get, it's just a matter of currency.
But the result after you spend your currency is too good for its price, too good in comparison.

You don't even need good crit items to easily outperform a non crit build.
And your passive points are better spent on crit, so don't tell me "you have to invest to make it work".

One way to indirectly nerf IAS is (like it's been done in many other games) increasing armor values on some mobs or giving them some amount of flat mitigation. This'll open another huge can of worms though, but it's a way nonetheless.

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PaperRat wrote:

One way to indirectly nerf IAS is (like it's been done in many other games) increasing armor values on some mobs or giving them some amount of flat mitigation. This'll open another huge can of worms though, but it's a way nonetheless.

That it will. The problem isn't that PoE does flat damage scaling, most games do that, the problem is they're acting like they aren't. Compare with TL where hard hitting skills are the king in higher difficulties because enemy armor isn't made of paper or Sacred where you don't want too many damage types on your skills because each will get mitigated into nothingness.
Not saying what they did is failproof but they at least tried something.

On the other side, we got PoE where flat damage is overscaled even on weapon level. I analyzed it in some other thread some time ago, highest flat damage roll on 1H weapons is almost equal to base damage of an Ambusher and highest flat roll on 2H weapons is only two thirds of a Reaver sword base damage. As a result, 1H weapons scale better once you start investing into a decent one.

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Peterlerock wrote:

I never had any problems getting crit rolls or accuracy.
It's not that hard to get, it's just a matter of currency.
But the result after you spend your currency is too good for its price, too good in comparison.

You don't even need good crit items to easily outperform a non crit build.
And your passive points are better spent on crit, so don't tell me "you have to invest to make it work".

Can you back up any of this with some proof or personal observations?


You absolutely have to spend more currency to make crit work vs non crit. But because of such your options for scaling crit damage become much better as it utilizes more rolls on more items and gear.

It's not that hard to get, it's just a matter of currency.

Ok, but not everyone can afford to pay for the 5/6 rolls required on weapons or crit\crit multi on gear or invest into a full tree respec or bandit respec to make it work, or spend money on quality gems.

Dismissing the fact that crit requires investment over non crit is ignorant, if thats how you are going to address the situation then I can't have a discussion with you.

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goetzjam wrote:

Dismissing the fact that crit requires investment over non crit is ignorant, if thats how you are going to address the situation then I can't have a discussion with you.

In the skilltree:
When both builds want roughly the same defenses, both have the same spare points for damage.
But the crit nodes are simply better.
As an example, take a look at the three nodes leading to "Adder's touch".
10% damage, 50% crit chance, 80% crit multi in four points.
Now compare them to the four non-crit nodes right above, leading to "Flaying".
Those are pretty much what a non-crit cluster in the tree looks like. For any weapon.
Guess which one leads to more DpS in the end.

You are getting "more bang for your buck" with crit. In almost any cluster.

On gear:
When I play crit, I want crit rolls and accuracy on top of the stuff a non-crit build also wants. Accuracy is often "for free".
Crit rolls are expensive, but since a 250 DpS weapon with crit roll will lead to better results than a 300 DpS non-crit weapon for roughly the same price...
On the other hand, the only advantage (over crit builds) money can buy for a non-crit build usually is chaos resist. Or slightly higher armor. Nice, but no big deal. There's just nothing else to gain in this affix pool.

Again, you are getting "more bang for your buck" with crit.

Skill gems:
I usually don't buy my quality gems, I relevel them.
But all 20/20 gems can be bought for ~1 Ex, doesn't matter too much which one you want (since the person levelling them has done exactly the same thing for a 20/20 faster attacks gem as he did for a 20/20 critical strikes gem, he spent time with a gem in his secondary slot).
Don't see any difference here.
But again, the crit gems are straight up better.


...so where is the big investment for a crit build?