Reduce end game Attack/Cast speed

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Peterlerock wrote:

...so where is the big investment for a crit build?

You know, recently when somebody asked the big 'crit or non-crit' question I pointed out it depends on spell base crit chance with this roughly being the rule of thumb:
4% - both are fine
5% - crit unless you got a very good reason not to
6% - crit all the way
7% - no point in asking

I think it shows really well that something stinks here, in a well balanced game it should look like this:
4% - non crit unless you got a good reason to go crit
5% - both are fine
6% - crit unless you got a good reason not to
7% - crit all the way

Can you not see that an RT build requires nothing more then a good rolled 3/6 weapon vs a crit build that requires a better weapon, better rolls on gear (rings, ammy) typically gloves as well.

You compare probably the best crit weapon cluster in the game, that is in the crit part of the tree to "the whole tree" stating that the physical dps wheel on the top is "just like any other on crit cluster" are you serious right now?

The 2 handed weapon scaling has higher phys and better "unqiue" properties for the larger nodes. Pick a weapon and specialize in the type and you can get bonuses as high as 35% from a single node and the nodes leading up to those are not bad either, they are well worth the point investment.

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Guess which one leads to more DpS in the end.

Probably the one that utilizes most of what weapons can provide, which naturally is crit, people like you seem to dismiss gearing requirements as its some sort of stepping stone that is easily overcame, it isn't and I am sure GGG can confirm with data that the amount of people investing or going into crit is much less then your average user thinks.

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Accuracy is often "for free".

So you don't pay anything extra to get it on gear? Obviously the mod being on an item means you are missing out of something else that could possibly roll in its place, naturally you'd leave that out of your argument.

The fact you are looking for rolls on gear to make your build behave better is a good thing, the fact that RT builds don't is not necessarily a good thing, but it helps them be more "budget" friendly. Like I mentioned before a %phys roll mod on jewelry might be the "problem solver" to bring RT up just enough so people don't feel they need to go crit.

Quality gems will matter much, much more in 2.0. Support gems for melee scale better, gem levels until 19 are faster, from 19>20 is 3 times as long, which means converting to 20 quality will take much more. We won't be seeing any 20\20 gems for 1ex after 2.0 hits, those days are about to be over.

Like I said support gems for melee will scale better, this also will help close the gap, a common gem for crit builds "additional accuracy" is also having its quality reworked making it less desireable for crit builds.

GGG is doing plenty in 2.0 to address this "crit is better" pretty much the 2 things that are missing are:

Charge up based support for a slower harder hitting attack.

and

Explore %phys rolls on jewlery, hell maybe replace iron rings base with it.

double post please delete -.-

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raics wrote:

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Peterlerock wrote:

...so where is the big investment for a crit build?

You know, recently when somebody asked the big 'crit or non-crit' question I pointed out it depends on spell base crit chance with this roughly being the rule of thumb:
4% - both are fine
5% - crit unless you got a very good reason not to
6% - crit all the way
7% - no point in asking

I think it shows really well that something stinks here, in a well balanced game it should look like this:
4% - non crit unless you got a good reason to go crit
5% - both are fine
6% - crit unless you got a good reason not to
7% - crit all the way

What 4% spell do you think is good going crit with?

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goetzjam wrote:

What 4% spell do you think is good going crit with?

I think we've both seen plenty crit Arc builds even when it was still at 4% chance. These days I've seen Shockwave and Flame Totem built for crit as often as not.

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raics wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

What 4% spell do you think is good going crit with?

I think we've both seen plenty crit Arc builds even when it was still at 4% chance. These days I've seen Shockwave and Flame Totem built for crit as often as not.

Well totem got rekt pretty hard in beta.

Shockwave has an interesting "buff" with the fact they could go support with "suckwave" Its also a totem build so with the changes to summoning maybe it won't be so bad.

Crit arc is about the only one you'd do as a self caster that I can think, even so I think its fine to not go crit if you don't want to worry about those downsides\cost.

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goetzjam wrote:

Well totem got rekt pretty hard in beta.

Strange, I could swear SW totem got a damage buff in some datasheet with spells from beta and Flame totem was the most powerful totem of all that Ziggy used during that interview with Rory.

But it isn't really important which skill it is, the point is stacking damage and crit on a 4% base spell gives same or better dps than just stacking damage, nobody would bother doing it otherwise. I think that shouldn't be the case, if a spell has low crit chance it means going crit shouldn't be efficient, and it really isn't, the trouble is we can stack so much of it that it ultimately ends up stronger.

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raics wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Well totem got rekt pretty hard in beta.

Strange, I could swear SW totem got a damage buff in some datasheet with spells from beta and Flame totem was the most powerful totem of all that Ziggy used during that interview with Rory.

But it isn't really important which skill it is, the point is stacking damage and crit on a 4% base spell gives same or better dps than just stacking damage, nobody would bother doing it otherwise. I think that shouldn't be the case, if a spell has low crit chance it means going crit shouldn't be efficient, and it really isn't, the trouble is we can stack so much of it that it ultimately ends up stronger.

Cast speed no longer affects how fast you summon a totem, thats a separate thing now. So before you'd have skill gem, support gems and faster casting, which would help summoning the totem AND casting said spell. Perhaps the damage buff were to compensate for that change and flame totem's was to compensate for no more shotgunning.

They should still be playable, but they got hit really hard with that nerf.

Well it does kinda matter what skill you are staking crit on, if you are stacking crit on a totem its because there really isn't any downsides other then gear to worry about. I don't think its more effective to go crit on any 4% skill that isn't a totem, even then totems only do it because players can get "free" power charges using ice spear+pcoc and don't really have anything else they can be doing while totems are attacking.

Then again void battery plays a large part on crit totems success.

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goetzjam wrote:

Cast speed no longer affects how fast you summon a totem, thats a separate thing now. So before you'd have skill gem, support gems and faster casting, which would help summoning the totem AND casting said spell. Perhaps the damage buff were to compensate for that change and flame totem's was to compensate for no more shotgunning.

They should still be playable, but they got hit really hard with that nerf.

Well it does kinda matter what skill you are staking crit on, if you are stacking crit on a totem its because there really isn't any downsides other then gear to worry about. I don't think its more effective to go crit on any 4% skill that isn't a totem, even then totems only do it because players can get "free" power charges using ice spear+pcoc and don't really have anything else they can be doing while totems are attacking.

Then again void battery plays a large part on crit totems success.

Hmm, dunno if you tried totems in beta, it felt pretty snappy to me. They are also significantly beefier and reduced duration isn't really important, if you can't clear the screen in 8s you should probably scrap that char.

Well, just dig a bit around the build section, you'll see people going crit virtually on anything that is able to crit. As I said already, stacking crit on a skill with low base is pretty inefficient but it doesn't matter, it's the sheer amount.

Personally, I feel crit chance isn't enough to balance crit, spells and weapons should also have different base crit multi. It would open up some new possiblities, like giving axes low chance and high multi and daggers high chance but low multi.

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raics wrote:

Hmm, dunno if you tried totems in beta, it felt pretty snappy to me. They are also significantly beefier and reduced duration isn't really important, if you can't clear the screen in 8s you should probably scrap that char.

Well, just dig a bit around the build section, you'll see people going crit virtually on anything that is able to crit. As I said already, stacking crit on a skill with low base is pretty inefficient but it doesn't matter, it's the sheer amount.

Personally, I feel crit chance isn't enough to balance crit, I feel that spells and weapons should aslo have different crit multi. It would open up some new possiblities, like giving axes low chance an high multi and dagger high chance but low multi.

I haven't tried totem yet, its on my list of things to do though.

Well crit multi has been pretty dumpsters on tree, gems and gear throughout many patches, I think its safe to say that GGG wants crit chance to remain high, while multi to be somewhat restricted.

Its an idea having different bonuses for different weapon types, I think thats kinda what they are doing with the new bases, although not entirely sure.