Reduce end game Attack/Cast speed

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Grumlum wrote:

you ... can ... do ... whatever ... you ... want !!!!

And not feel like you're gimping yourself? Stacking attack/cast speed is a significant dps multiplier.

And supports are a bit over the top too, ranged builds are kinda ok, but echo and multistrike are a bit too much on melees and casters, especially multistrike. Can't do removing them at this point but just cutting down on the speed bonus might be good, the supports offer plenty of utility with autotargeting and mana multipliers are very low with 125% for multistrike and just 110% for L20 echo if we calculate mana consumption per second. And there's also a lot of utility in added benefits like getting multiple skill uses on skills that spend charges or souls.

Sure, you don't have to use them, but if you don't you run out of good dps supports quickly on a bunch of skills. It's good to see devs introducing more supports in 2.0 but all those are conditional ones, can't see people swapping an unconditional support with a conditional one.

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raics wrote:

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Grumlum wrote:

you ... can ... do ... whatever ... you ... want !!!!

And not feel like you're gimping yourself? Stacking attack/cast speed is a significant dps multiplier.

And supports are a bit over the top too, ranged builds are kinda ok, but echo and multistrike are a bit too much on melees and casters, especially multistrike. Can't do removing them at this point but just cutting down on the speed bonus might be good, the supports offer plenty of utility with autotargeting and mana multipliers are very low with 125% for multistrike and just 110% for L20 echo if we calculate mana consumption per second. And there's also a lot of utility in added benefits like getting multiple skill uses on skills that spend charges or souls.

Sure, you don't have to use them, but if you don't you run out of good dps supports quickly on a bunch of skills. It's good to see devs introducing more supports in 2.0 but all those are conditional ones, can't see people swapping an unconditional support with a conditional one.

If your one of those people comparing apples to oranges all day you are going to have bad time.

You don't need to stack attack speed to insane levels to increase your DPS, actually in all cases but reflect a harder hitting, slower attack (or spell) will be better. With the reflect changes on beta I think people will be more inclined to hit harder, not faster, but we have to wait and see what leech changes they have in store (later today) when it hits beta.

IDK why people get the notion that multistrike needs changed at all, it has built in downsides. Less damage for 2 additional attacks, not to mention the whole switching targets automatically, which makes using it for anything other then single target rather clunky. Quite a few melee skills work without or cannot use multistrike effectively.

Once you reach the threshold of 1 shotting with a melee skill attack speed starts dimension naturally.

Are you really saying multistrike or echo is overpowered of corrupted gems, are we talking about the same skills that require kills to get charges? I mean they are not 100% uptime skills and in this case echo is more powerful then multistrike ever could be, even so I don't think its "overpowered"

What case do you run out of dps supports, melee is getting fortify, bloodlust, and who knows what else... Some of the new gems are extremely powerful you have to play around them, for example if you have causes bleeding with weapon (atziri axe, mods or the new base) you can use your standard "aoe" attack to cause said bleeding and use a 4 link with a MORE multiplier against bleeding targets.

GGG is giving us much more options in 2.0, I would hate for them to remove or tune down options as PoE's greatest strength is the ability to find what works best for you.

I fully believe echo was added to make manual spell casters a thing, IMO it would have never been required if CoC wasn't a thing. IDK how I feel about echo on one side it makes playing a spell caster feel better, on the other side it doesn't have the natural downsides that multistrike does.

No need to draw apples and oranges into this, I just like to discuss seemingly unrelated stuff, nothing is beyond discussion here except food and religion.

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goetzjam wrote:

You don't need to stack attack speed to insane levels to increase your DPS, actually in all cases but reflect a harder hitting, slower attack (or spell) will be better. With the reflect changes on beta I think people will be more inclined to hit harder, not faster, but we have to wait and see what leech changes they have in store (later today) when it hits beta.

Of course I don't, but we're supposed to be able to play whatever the hell we want, right? Well, if I want a powerful, slow attacker for whatever reason, it isn't enough to just pick a slow weapon, I need to stack damage instead of attack speed which soon hits diminishing returns and avoid FA/multistrike which means I'm reducing my support pool.

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goetzjam wrote:

IDK why people get the notion that multistrike needs changed at all, it has built in downsides. Less damage for 2 additional attacks, not to mention the whole switching targets automatically, which makes using it for anything other then single target rather clunky. Quite a few melee skills work without or cannot use multistrike effectively.

Once you reach the threshold of 1 shotting with a melee skill attack speed starts dimension naturally.

You probably meant anything other than AoE skills? Single targets are ones that feel clunky if you try taking out specific targets in a crowd, but what are you supposed to support your slow, non-crit build with? MPD, Added Fire, maybe some defensive support like EC on Stun and that's it, we're out.

And once you get to oneshotting pretty much everything starts to diminish naturally, discussing edge cases is a waste of time.

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goetzjam wrote:

Are you really saying multistrike or echo is overpowered of corrupted gems, are we talking about the same skills that require kills to get charges? I mean they are not 100% uptime skills and in this case echo is more powerful then multistrike ever could be, even so I don't think its "overpowered"

No, you probabyl misunderstood that, I'm not saying echo and multistrike are overpowered, I'm saying they have plenty of utility value and there's no need to also offer that kind of dps boost at such a low mana multiplier. Especially echo, it gives you 50% more dps at 110% mana multiplier and no other drawback, that's nothing short of outrageous.

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goetzjam wrote:

What case do you run out of dps supports, melee is getting fortify, bloodlust, and who knows what else... Some of the new gems are extremely powerful you have to play around them, for example if you have causes bleeding with weapon (atziri axe, mods or the new base) you can use your standard "aoe" attack to cause said bleeding and use a 4 link with a MORE multiplier against bleeding targets.

Those are some nice options, but some are specific and others conditional, hard to beat a nice, straight dps boost that works on all damage types.

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goetzjam wrote:

GGG is giving us much more options in 2.0, I would hate for them to remove or tune down options as PoE's greatest strength is the ability to find what works best for you.

That doesn't mean some things can't be revisited and improved, maybe multistrike would feel better with just one repeat and 50% attack speed multi at higher damage. I'm against hardcapping stats but there must be a limit of reason, and 10+ attacks per second is well beyond that. As well as 95% crit chance at 600% multiplier but that's another story.

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Of course I don't, but we're supposed to be able to play whatever the hell we want, right? Well, if I want a powerful, slow attacker for whatever reason, it isn't enough to just pick a slow weapon, I need to stack damage instead of attack speed which soon hits diminishing returns and avoid FA/multistrike which means I'm reducing my support pool.

And? Your statement is true, but you are the one choosing to not want to use some of the support gems available. Like I said there are actually quite a number of support gems you could use, as far as tool tip dps is concerned yes multistrike and faster attacks will make it higher, but that isn't always the case in practice.

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You probably meant anything other than AoE skills? Single targets are ones that feel clunky if you try taking out specific targets in a crowd, but what are you supposed to support your slow, non-crit build with? MPD, Added Fire, maybe some defensive support like EC on Stun and that's it, we're out.

Even some AOE skills autotarget with it, which can be a PITA when you want to focus on the rare, but kill the white trash around it.

Well first of all you are clumping together 2 things here, fast attack speed AND crit. Now if you don't want to use both of those you are choosing to use 1/2 of the potential dps rolls on a weapon. But lets see here, if you are melee, depending on the skill of course. SKILL>MPD\MPDFL(if CI)\ADDED FIRE\Fortify\Weapon Ele (assuming you are running hatred\hoa) and probably bloodmagic.

So naturally you reduce as many support options by not going crit as you do by not going attack speed, but either way you are making the choice to eliminate possible support gems because of the playstyle you want.

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And once you get to oneshotting pretty much everything starts to diminish naturally, discussing edge cases is a waste of time.

So dismissing that claim, even though its 100% relevant to this discussion makes me concerned with your attitude going forwards. You specifically said (or someone said) that attackspeed should diminish, it does, it just doesn't display that on the tooltip, which apparently must be what everyone is concerned about.

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No, you probabyl misunderstood that, I'm not saying echo and multistrike are overpowered, I'm saying they have plenty of utility value and there's no need to also offer that kind of dps boost at such a low mana multiplier. Especially echo, it gives you 50% more dps at 110% mana multiplier and no other drawback, that's nothing short of outrageous.

For multistrike it wouldn't matter what multiplier was on it, people would still use it if they wanted to. Like I mentioned before echo was added to make spell casters better compete with CoC, tbh i like playing a spell caster with echo over just using faster casting, but I tried in beta innverate and I like that a lot too, its kind of 2 gems in one, chance to shock, faster casting and bonus movement speed.

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Those are some nice options, but some are specific and others conditional, hard to beat a nice, straight dps boost that works on all damage types.

You mean its hard to beat a tool tip dps boost?

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That doesn't mean some things can't be revisited and improved, maybe multistrike would feel better with just one repeat and 50% attack speed multi at higher damage. I'm against hardcapping stats but there must be a limit of reason, and 10+ attacks per second is well beyond that. As well as 95% crit chance at 600% multiplier but that's another story.

I don't get this circle jerk about multistrike all the sudden, first on reddit now here. Melee is underplayed enough on live as it is, removing or reducing multistrikes utility or power will just force everyone into builds that don't use it, ones that are already popular and fine without it like cyclone. We don't want to remove options for melee especially.

You gain power over time, nothing worst then being the same level or higher level then the content and struggling to get thru it, I am sure if you wanted to theory craft a build that doesn't attack super fast and hit hard (but you have to go crit) you could clear just as fast, if not faster then those that attack super fast, but you are asking for something that shouldn't be possible, which is a slow attacking, non crit build to clear as fast as someone that takes advantage of every single dps roll on an item....

I'd love to see a build with even 500 multiplier, whats the max cap with non legacy gear\rolls?

But for future discussions stick either to attack speed or crit, don't lump them together.

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goetzjam wrote:

You gain power over time, nothing worst then being the same level or higher level then the content and struggling to get thru it, I am sure if you wanted to theory craft a build that doesn't attack super fast and hit hard (but you have to go crit) you could clear just as fast, if not faster then those that attack super fast, but you are asking for something that shouldn't be possible, which is a slow attacking, non crit build to clear as fast as someone that takes advantage of every single dps roll on an item....

In a perfectly balanced game, it would look something like this:

Maximum DpS = 20.000 (just for comparison, you can set the limit to any other number)

Slow attack build: hit two times for 10.000
Slow crit build: hit once for 5.000, once for 15.000
Fast attack build: hit 5 times for 4.000
Fast crit build: hit 2 times for 3.000, two times for 7.000
Want AoE? Damage is cut in half.
Want Range? Damage is cut in half (again).

In PoE, it's not like this. It's not even close. And this is nothing but laziness in terms of design and balance. Having no (real) limits on attack speed, crit chance, crit multi, no serious damage drawbacks on range or AoE is hurting the game. It's breaking it.

You just get more and more and more damage when you are taking the "fast and crit" road.
Everything gets better, without any drawback.
Wrath? Shitty aura for my Marohi Erqi Marauder. Insane DpS for my Double Doryani Crit dude.
7-15 Damage on a ring? Don't even notice the difference on the first, the second gains like 5k DpS.

This is not me being "jealous" or some other nonsense, I also play crit and fast attacks and everything. But I have to facepalm when I read quotes like "you have to invest to make crit work". The cost is minimal when compared to the gain.
And you're also not "clever" to take the crit road. It's 100% obvious it's better.

hello everyone
just my 2 cents
is about 2 or 3 month i play this game very hardcore , and is very obvious in the skill tree ias is a lot better of +%dmg same for casting , this is just my 2 cents i feel strong_slow build are not valuable in this game vs full ias build , that why everyone make the same max ias build ,valuable build for path of exite is get all ias and all critical :),i will say the same of Dominus This world is an illusion, exile because all valuable build are the same
but i still love and enjoy the game
i

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Peterlerock wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

You gain power over time, nothing worst then being the same level or higher level then the content and struggling to get thru it, I am sure if you wanted to theory craft a build that doesn't attack super fast and hit hard (but you have to go crit) you could clear just as fast, if not faster then those that attack super fast, but you are asking for something that shouldn't be possible, which is a slow attacking, non crit build to clear as fast as someone that takes advantage of every single dps roll on an item....

In a perfectly balanced game, it would look something like this:

Maximum DpS = 20.000 (just for comparison, you can set the limit to any other number)

Slow attack build: hit two times for 10.000
Slow crit build: hit once for 5.000, once for 15.000
Fast attack build: hit 5 times for 4.000
Fast crit build: hit 2 times for 3.000, two times for 7.000
Want AoE? Damage is cut in half.
Want Range? Damage is cut in half (again).

In PoE, it's not like this. It's not even close. And this is nothing but laziness in terms of design and balance. Having no (real) limits on attack speed, crit chance, crit multi, no serious damage drawbacks on range or AoE is hurting the game. It's breaking it.

You just get more and more and more damage when you are taking the "fast and crit" road.
Everything gets better, without any drawback.
Wrath? Shitty aura for my Marohi Erqi Marauder. Insane DpS for my Double Doryani Crit dude.
7-15 Damage on a ring? Don't even notice the difference on the first, the second gains like 5k DpS.

This is not me being "jealous" or some other nonsense, I also play crit and fast attacks and everything. But I have to facepalm when I read quotes like "you have to invest to make crit work". The cost is minimal when compared to the gain.
And you're also not "clever" to take the crit road. It's 100% obvious it's better.

Hell no, in no way should the maximum dps be the same across the board, PoE limits things by the roll you can get on gear, tree and gems and should leave it at that. Its up to the players to make the gearing selection, passive tree and gems they should use for whatever build they want.

If everything felt the same then it wouldn't matter what the hell you used, TBH thats boring as hell and what another game does (hint its D3). But in that game instead of having accuracy at all all attacks hit, which means in comparison they have no non crit viable builds at all. Take PoE for example and you can get RT, (so not crit) and if you want stack some attack speed or just go for raw damage. However, due to formulas of damage and possible mods on weapons the most effective use (at the top) is to go crit and attack fast, even if you don't use the support gems (FA\multi) your build will still utilize all the damage rolls the weapon can provide. Even so many people still go RT builds because they are slower, harder hitting weapons that typically require much less gear, but as they require less gear they also can utilize less gear, see how its a tradeoff?

You are comparing a flat damage roll, which of course scales with attack speed, if there was a mod for %phys instead of just flat that might make your build better, perhaps thats a suggestion you all should be making instead of reducing attackspeed.

In regards to 5k dps, thats the problem here you are comparing tooltips, across different builds\playstyles\weapons....back to the whole apples vs oranges.

The "cost" of going crit isn't as minimal as you mention it to be. Crit requires investment across the board, whereas a slower attack build such as RT requires traversing to it on the tree and thats it, don't need crit rolls on gear, don't need quality gems, it just works.

But glad we've lumped together this thread with every single other crit thread out there now.

Feel free to condense posts like those, it's not a biggie if a point gets lost.

Anyway, I was suggesting to keep things within limits of an average player that has average gear and isn't doing much oneshotting, especially considering monsters will get tougher in 2.0. It's pretty much the same as using oneshots when discussing survivability. About crit, it wasn't even discussed, I just mentioned it to clarify what kind of build we're talking about, probably wasn't even necessary as a slow attacker is usually built around RT.

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if you are melee, depending on the skill of course. SKILL>MPD\MPDFL(if CI)\ADDED FIRE\Fortify\Weapon Ele (assuming you are running hatred\hoa) and probably bloodmagic.

You listed straw supports here, CI melee is a very exotic bird, blood magic is unnecessary on a slow phys build and WED just for AF&Hatred is fairly desperate.

Yeah, I chose to make a slow build and am narrowing down my supports but that shouldn't mean my dps must end up much lower than what a fast build would have. Like you said yourself, let there be options.

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For multistrike it wouldn't matter what multiplier was on it, people would still use it if they wanted to.

Exactly, that was my point, it offers enough without 135% damage multiplier for 125% mana, it could be lower and people would still use it. Anyway, I don't really think it has too much raw power like Echo, I just think doubling your speed is way too much, it could be lower and damage multiplier could a bit higher.

I'd like to fiddle with it a bit, what I'd attempt with them is make both multistrike and echo repeat only once at 20% less damage and scale speed multi from 140 to 160% at 160% mana multi, which comes down to to 128% dps multi for 128% mana cost over time.

So, multistrike would be just a bit weaker but the point is being able to use it without turning yourself into a lawnmower.

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Grumlum wrote:

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But FFS leave the choice to the player and stop crying for nerfs just because "you don´t like how others do it"

I partly agree with this. Crying for nerfs is often due to this. But in this case, I feel the OP has the stronger point:
Fast damage dealers are much much better than slow damage dealers in PoE. There is no denying that. So for a balanced game, where choices really matter, slow guys must be buffed and/or fast guys nerfed so they can at least compete in the same league.

Buffs lead to power creep, nerfs annoy people. Both options suck, but in the case of IAS a nerf is justified because it
- has no diminishing returns, like most other mechanics
- it has no cap, like most other mechanics

No nerf should ruin builds (except really exploitative ones), but a slight nerf to AS and a slight buff to single hitters would be quite good for the game and its balance.

PS: Please don't get angry in this discussion, it's no fun to read a heated argument between 2 people who simply disagree.

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Yeah, I chose to make a slow build and am narrowing down my supports but that shouldn't mean my dps must end up much lower than what a fast build would have. Like you said yourself, let there be options.

I liked the other thread that had a charge up mechanic that would work as a support gem, idk if its possible to add, but I think something like that would help. That being said I don't think nerfing multistrike would the the route to "fix" your concern in the meantime.

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Exactly, that was my point, it offers enough without 135% damage multiplier for 125% mana, it could be lower and people would still use it. Anyway, I don't really think it has too much raw power like Echo, I just think doubling your speed is way too much, it could be lower and damage multiplier could a bit higher.

You also lock yourself in place while preforming the attack, paired with autotargetting (aka switching) I think it naturally has enough downsides to not use for every single build, which IMO it isn't.

Echo is an interesting thing, they've made it not work with totems, now on beta it doesn't work on flameblast and who knows what else. I used innverate with my ball lightning character instead of faster casting AND echo because it provided me with the utility I wanted, I think with some of these new support gems they might give echo a run for its money.

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I'd like to fiddle with it a bit, what I'd attempt with them is make both multistrike and echo repeat only once at 20% less damage and scale speed multi from 140 to 160% at 160% mana multi, which comes down to to 128% dps multi for 128% mana cost over time.

I personally would hate this change, even if I didn't use either of of the gems its called multistrike and echo not doublestrike and doublecast.

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So, multistrike would be just a bit weaker but the point is being able to use it without turning yourself into a lawnmower.

Multistrike wouldn't be used if it was 2v3 like it is now, aside from people that want to buff their tooltip it wouldn't be more effective then just hitting harder initially, which I guess is what you are looking for, but IMO multstrike is fine and nerf to it is unjustified.