Reduce end game Attack/Cast speed

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goetzjam wrote:

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Nurvus wrote:

goetzjam, the point here is that attack speed is too efficient, and also reaches ridiculous levels.

There should either be an attack speed cap, or it should have diminishing returns.

That being said, naturally I would like all sorts of builds to be viable, with their own upsides and downsides.

But "ridiculous" should be neither an upside nor downside.

Caps by design are lazy and stupid game choice designers make.

Every single time people say:

cap crit chance
cap crit multi

now is cap attack speed, cap cast speed

Those are terrible game choices and one that I hope GGG would never make.

Hard caps are the "worst" solution, indeed.
The ideal is to have increased attack speed scale in a way that it naturally becomes less and less efficient to invest in it the more you have of it.

The whole point here is not just attack speed ends up "dominating" end game...
...it also feels ridiculous attacking so fast...
...and with trigger Gems it also ends up causing massive lag on other players.
There's really not much good out of it.

The idea isn't nerfing attack speed builds.
The idea is balancing them around NOT needing so much attack speed, and nerfing the availability of attack speed so that you can't reach ridiculous amounts.

I dunno guys. nothing more boring to me than 1-19 on a melee. Casters aren't so bad, but melee with the manna potion guzzling after 4 hits and the god awful slow pace, if that were the whole game I'd be gone so fast it isn't funny.

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Nurvus wrote:

The idea isn't nerfing attack speed builds.
The idea is balancing them around NOT needing so much attack speed, and nerfing the availability of attack speed so that you can't reach ridiculous amounts.

The thing is, nobody really needs very high attack speed. It´s just a preference, and obviously very fast characters are a lot of fun to play....action, you know ? fast paced action !!

Nobody could ever claim that the game is "balanced around.." or "balanced so that you need high attack speed"...fact is, you don´t, slower characters are totally viable. Nobody needs 10 attacks or casts per second to have a solid and viable build.

Cutting off from the top end does nothing but reduce what makes PoE so great : in-depth character customization. You want less attack speed ? Great, more nodes to put into armour, evasion, accuracy, aura nodes, whatever you choose ! It´s the choices we can make, and there´s plenty, and all these suggestions to "nerf,cap, and destroy xyz" are all aimed at reducing the large pool of possibilities we players can choose from, therefore harming the game at its very core.

One issue in PoE is that there's no alternative itemwise.

The best affixes for DpS are:
flat Damage
% damage
%damage/acc
attackspeed
crit chance
crit multi

If I don't want crit or attackspeed, there's nothing for me to gain on the suffix side.
Resists? +Strength? Not comparable at all.

If PoE would care for balance and tradeoffs, there would be a decision here, like:
Do I want to hit harder or faster?
Do I want to crit more often on a weaker weapon or crit rarely, but have higher damage on noncrits?

Imagine attackspeed and crit being prefixes.

All of a sudden the choice wouldn't be trivial any more.

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Peterlerock wrote:

One issue in PoE is that there's no alternative itemwise.

The best affixes for DpS are:
flat Damage
% damage
%damage/acc
attackspeed
crit chance
crit multi

If I don't want crit or attackspeed, there's nothing for me to gain on the suffix side.
Resists? +Strength? Not comparable at all.

If PoE would care for balance and tradeoffs, there would be a decision here, like:
Do I want to hit harder or faster?
Do I want to crit more often on a weaker weapon or crit rarely, but have higher damage on noncrits?

Imagine attackspeed and crit being prefixes.

All of a sudden the choice wouldn't be trivial any more.

Ok but one thing to keep in mind if lets say crit change\damage was a prefix then you are closing that gap (with the current system) on how you are dealing the damage, which might seem like a good thing until you realize people have to heavily invest into crit to make the chance\multi worth it.

If anything I would like to see other options that wouldnt directly penalize crit to do more damage, if you choose to not have attack speed.

Then again people also just compare tool tip dps instead of actual clear speed, the dude that hits 5 times (fast attack speed) might have the same clear speed of someone that doesn't use faster attacks and a raw dps gem instead.

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Grumlum wrote:

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Nurvus wrote:

The idea isn't nerfing attack speed builds.
The idea is balancing them around NOT needing so much attack speed, and nerfing the availability of attack speed so that you can't reach ridiculous amounts.

The thing is, nobody really needs very high attack speed. It´s just a preference, and obviously very fast characters are a lot of fun to play....action, you know ? fast paced action !!

Nobody could ever claim that the game is "balanced around.." or "balanced so that you need high attack speed"...fact is, you don´t, slower characters are totally viable. Nobody needs 10 attacks or casts per second to have a solid and viable build.

Cutting off from the top end does nothing but reduce what makes PoE so great : in-depth character customization. You want less attack speed ? Great, more nodes to put into armour, evasion, accuracy, aura nodes, whatever you choose ! It´s the choices we can make, and there´s plenty, and all these suggestions to "nerf,cap, and destroy xyz" are all aimed at reducing the large pool of possibilities we players can choose from, therefore harming the game at its very core.

Ridiculous attack speed is harming the game at its very core.
Specially when the drawback is that there is no drawback.

I'm not against fast or even very fast attack speed.
I'm against stupid attack speed.
I don't want to nerf the dps of any build.
But when it not just viable but insanely effective to go with stupid attack speed, it ruins the feel of the game.

Play some CI caster you'll appreciate quickly otherways to get DPS besides cast speed. It's not that way for most builds granted but options are there for diversity.

I want wands like there when playing CI notice no cast speed - wish lightning roll was a little higher tho (should go to 50 as a fair trade for cast speed don't y'all think)

I also think AS should be more of a choice. Currently is has only upsides, no downside:
- more dmg per sec, obviously
- less time for monsters to interrupt the technique
- less time to stand around and get hit

If I think about how fights work "in real life", I find a fast fighter is often sloppy. My suggestion would be to let AS decrease accuracy and/or chance to crit. Or let AS make it easier for monsters to interrupt your technique.
In Karate I've walked through sloppy fighters' fast multi-kicks to get at them because I saw they wouldn't hurt me. This often knocked them completely off balance. If they had concentrated on fewer, better-aimed, kicks, I would not have dared...

Mana cost is a limiting factor of some attack speed builds, Frenzy for one is difficult to sustain once you get the gattling gun going.

The mana cost of melee attacks is just so low however so the largest drawback of attack speed can be negated entirely by 1% mana leech most of the time.

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Nurvus wrote:

Ridiculous attack speed is harming the game at its very core.
Specially when the drawback is that there is no drawback.

There sure is a drawback. To get attack speed to the point where it´s "silly or ridiculous" you sure need to invest a whole lot of skill points into attack speed, and it´s very likely to create an unbalanced build that is lacking sufficient HP pool or other defenses. Every single point matters, the more you put into speed, the less you have to boost your character´s defense.

And once again : if "too fast" ruins the feel for you, you don´t have to play fast. It is your choice. You can make it. What I absolutely despise are these suggestions that go "make it so that guy can no longer chose to be as fast as he is, it ruins my game feel"....guess what, the "reduce attack speed" suggestion ruins the game feel for all others that like/prefer fast builds.

So, please get it into your brain : you ... can ... do ... whatever ... you ... want !!!!
But FFS leave the choice to the player and stop crying for nerfs just because "you don´t like how others do it"