The main source of frustation, especially for new players

"

Elhazzared wrote:

There is no problem with barter being a big part of the game. It is a problem if the barter actually hinders the gameplay! And it does hinders the gameplay by trying to force people into streamlined builds for a very long time until they have enough currency to stop doing it. Why do most people who play this game quit it? Exactly because of that. A high quit rate in any game indicates there is a big problem with it... some people do not mind the problem, they have the endurance to tolerate it for a very long while until it stops being a problem, the vast majority of people don't however!

Again, I'm hardly arguing that this hinders the gameplay for some and is the cause for people to quit the game. All I'm saying is your suggestions will change the makeup of the game. Does POE have a (dangerously) high quit rate? Do you have the numbers to back this up? I'd be interested to know.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

As for the other point. Leech in gear? Really? Last I checked leeching from spells was something that was incredibly rare. Another case of pay in the order of exalts to get and given that you use blood magic and spend your life to cast, add to this damage you take from enemies and you don't need to have a bit of leech, you need a sick ton of leeching to sustain. Oh and in the case I wasn't specific enough. You use blood magic in the form of a gem, not the passive from the tree because it's way too far and it requires spending way more points than I have available. In fact the build would be completly unviable DPS wise if it wasn't for Cybil's paw.

You can get 1% leech from one of the masters on your weapon. Cybil's would help as you've noted. A Doryani's Invitation with lightning leech would help too. Does acquiring them require a player to dip his toes into the economy? Yes. Does it frustrate the heck out of some players? Certainly. POE currently is the kind of game that asks this tough question. You're asking for that question to be removed entirely. That is a different game.

Again it does not change the makeup of the game. There are people playing with 6L exclusively, they are rich enough to do so. The game doesn't changes. it doesn't makes it any harder or any easier at all! It only allows them to have a wider variety of options when playing the game and having a wider variety of options is good. Why do you feel that this being avaialable to everyone from the very first character they make is bad, is completly incompreensible to me. Something that would change the landscape of the game would be something that say, make the entire game a lot easier or a lot harder. You don't need 6L for that or even 4L. Like I said, in a 5L I had Dominus bend over in normal when I said, Hi! I'm only level 37 but I have 4.5K DPS and can still easily tank anything you throw at me. Yes it's normal but that only means, lower level character and lower level Dominus. He isn't any harder in cruel, just higher level and my resistences take a hit but since gear brings higher resistence anyway and I'm higher level to take a little more from the tree if absolutly necessary, who cares right? The same thing will happen all over again and the same will repeat on mercyless. The landscape won't change at all, I'll just be able to do the same thing in a different manner... Well not the same thing since it's a different build but really, it's not like it can get any easier than walk up to him hit him till her drops cause he just won't be able to do anything.

I cannot claim to have any data from the number of people who creaed accounts and gave up within one month of play, it's not like this data is readly available for all. I can say that out of all of my friends and we all like this kind of game, only I still play intermitently when I don't really have anything else and am bored out of my mind with absolutly nothing else to play. That says a lot already when this is one f my favorite genres. unfortunatly, diablo 3 is priced at pornographic rates and torchlight 2 has severely boring skills on all classes which makes the game boring to play after a little while. PoE isn't great for me either, it is just what's left that to a degree manages to stave off the boredom.

As for the build. My DPS will be very low. Don't forget that most builds gets something like over 200% extra damage from the tree alone not to mention extra cast speed. Add items that increase spell damage and you are easily going over 300% extra damage. My build probably doesn't gets 70% from the tree and also gets either no casting speed or nearly no casting speed. To get at very least 41% block from the tree, sacrifices have to be made! i probably get around 200% extra spell damage total. Think that in a 6L I only get spell echo and faster casting as DPS increase, only 2 out of 3 possible support gems. My DPS is very low by comparison to other characters, in a 5L losing the life leech is not possible at all. I need to be able to leech a ton of life because of any damage that gets through my defenses + my loss from blood magic. I also dunno if masters can craft in unique gear and cybil's paw is unique after all. but even considering they can and a belt which you know, I cannot aford! 2% is nothing. My mage with quite a lot more DPS and a life leech gem barely leeches enough to survive what manages to get close and it doesn't even uses blood magic.

I am not asking that PoE changes in the sense that it's trading based. Many builds will still need the trading because good rares do not drop like candy. For example, my current build for my melee 4.5K DPS that murders anything that comes within reach does not work without a very high physical roll based weapon. Heck, i don't even need unique weapons, rare weapons can give me much more damage and much more DPS than uniques ever will. For example, the best unique I could have would be Atziri's Disfavor which has some 490 DPS of it's own. Not bad, but I can find on the market rare weapons closer to 900. That's almost double though they are expectedly much more expensive than Atziri's Disfavor... This will not go away, people will still find great items, most of the times not good for their builds but great to sell for those willing to pay... People will still need that certain unique that has that certain keystone so they don't pick the one in the tree and save a ton of points and so on and so further. Also you know, you still need the market for gems. Best place to make sure you have the needed gems to do your builds. Thus the economy based nature of Path of Exile wouldn't change. All that would change is that 5L and 6L are no longer a rarity measure. they are merely steping stones on your leveling up path as I belive they should be.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

I cannot claim to have any data from the number of people who creaed accounts and gave up within one month of play, it's not like this data is readly available for all. I can say that out of all of my friends and we all like this kind of game, only I still play intermitently when I don't really have anything else and am bored out of my mind with absolutly nothing else to play. That says a lot already when this is one f my favorite genres. unfortunatly, diablo 3 is priced at pornographic rates and torchlight 2 has severely boring skills on all classes which makes the game boring to play after a little while. PoE isn't great for me either, it is just what's left that to a degree manages to stave off the boredom.

Okay, fair enough you think this is a deadly design flaw of the game, but extrapolating the experience of you and your circle of friends to "A high quit rate in any game indicates there is a big problem with it" isn't an accurate thing to say then.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

As for the build. My DPS will be very low. Don't forget that most builds gets something like over 200% extra damage from the tree alone not to mention extra cast speed. Add items that increase spell damage and you are easily going over 300% extra damage. My build probably doesn't gets 70% from the tree and also gets either no casting speed or nearly no casting speed. To get at very least 41% block from the tree, sacrifices have to be made! i probably get around 200% extra spell damage total. Think that in a 6L I only get spell echo and faster casting as DPS increase, only 2 out of 3 possible support gems. My DPS is very low by comparison to other characters, in a 5L losing the life leech is not possible at all. I need to be able to leech a ton of life because of any damage that gets through my defenses + my loss from blood magic. I also dunno if masters can craft in unique gear and cybil's paw is unique after all. but even considering they can and a belt which you know, I cannot aford! 2% is nothing. My mage with quite a lot more DPS and a life leech gem barely leeches enough to survive what manages to get close and it doesn't even uses blood magic.

You say this, that a 6L is vital to your build at level 59 presumably (since you said you've never leveled a character past 60), but go on to say this

"

Elhazzared wrote:

The game doesn't changes. it doesn't makes it any harder or any easier at all! It only allows them to have a wider variety of options when playing the game and having a wider variety of options is good. Why do you feel that this being avaialable to everyone from the very first character they make is bad, is completly incompreensible to me. Something that would change the landscape of the game would be something that say, make the entire game a lot easier or a lot harder. You don't need 6L for that or even 4L. Like I said, in a 5L I had Dominus bend over in normal when I said, Hi! I'm only level 37 but I have 4.5K DPS and can still easily tank anything you throw at me. Yes it's normal but that only means, lower level character and lower level Dominus. He isn't any harder in cruel, just higher level and my resistences take a hit but since gear brings higher resistence anyway and I'm higher level to take a little more from the tree if absolutly necessary, who cares right? The same thing will happen all over again and the same will repeat on mercyless. The landscape won't change at all, I'll just be able to do the same thing in a different manner... Well not the same thing since it's a different build but really, it's not like it can get any easier than walk up to him hit him till her drops cause he just won't be able to do anything.

Are you or are you not saying a 6L would make the monster encounter easier for you?

Righto!

I want to experience the game with my own build and I am really tired of hearing the solution to such and such is this canned build!

And finally after 4 leagues I was able to craft my own decent 6-link (first) in a league and use it. Yes, and I totally agree that it's pretty much a requirement to advance to the highest levels of the game for my build.

Vorici's costs are exorbitant. However, I did make it to level 89 with a 5-link. Yes, I complain all the time about patches, game changes, etc. favoring the rich player, e.g. from 1 divine to 2 exalts for the multi-mod.

Each new league has a dearth of exalts until the end of the league and divines are way tooooo rare. I've never seen an eternal (could buy one, finally) or a mirror.

And I really hate the effective penalties imposed on the solo player, e.g. experience, timed events (39 seconds for a 1-player or a 6-player party until you start killing monsters -- where in a 6-person party, the time can go well over 10 minutes easily to kill the "corrupted" boss while, if you're lucky, you might have 1 minute as a successful solo player -- and the start loading screen can really eat into that 39 seconds: no grace period any more).

When everyone you know played the game and has quit in under 2 weeks, that pretty much says a lot. Add that to the fact that 90% of the active people you see in the market are always the same (with a small degree of variety accounted for different time periods) and that pretty much sums up that the quit rate is very high. Want more? Why is it that all the people posting builds are always the same? It's the same rich people. ture, not everyone knows how to make a proper build, but many people would be posting builds and refining them as they got advice from the people who'll be able to math the build to the most minuscle atom. It doesn't happens however. always the same people coming up with builds because it's the people who have the kind of wealth to be able to mess with 6L. They also put the streamlined 4L builds as service which is nice of them but really always the same people because it's where the wealth is. those who don't cannot make builds and in the vast majority of cases prefer to give up playing than the pain it is to get to that point.

I am not saying a 6L will make a monster encounter go easier on me. I am saying that 4L can already make the game plenty easy. However some builds will not work with less than 5L and some builds will 100% need a 6L to work because by virtue of their passives/interaction of gems it cannot work with any less. Different builds owrk differently. Some will ask less links to work, but they are for the most part streamlined and boring, what everyone uses because they don't have the economy to do anything else. Others will ask more links. At the end of the day they will be just as effective at doing the job they are meant to do, but they just cannot work with the same amount of links because they differ in the way they play and the gems interact.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

When everyone you know played the game and has quit in under 2 weeks, that pretty much says a lot. Add that to the fact that 90% of the active people you see in the market are always the same (with a small degree of variety accounted for different time periods) and that pretty much sums up that the quit rate is very high. Want more? Why is it that all the people posting builds are always the same? It's the same rich people. ture, not everyone knows how to make a proper build, but many people would be posting builds and refining them as they got advice from the people who'll be able to math the build to the most minuscle atom. It doesn't happens however. always the same people coming up with builds because it's the people who have the kind of wealth to be able to mess with 6L. They also put the streamlined 4L builds as service which is nice of them but really always the same people because it's where the wealth is.

Care to back this up with actual numbers? How many of those active market players represent the overall active player base? Can you draw some kind of statistical relationship between your friends quitting and the active market players? Since you put them together in a causal relationship.

The people posting builds tend to be the same lot of theory-crafters, yes, but how about those innovative builders who simply don't post on the forum and share their builds? Do you account for them?

"

Elhazzared wrote:

those who don't cannot make builds and in the vast majority of cases prefer to give up playing than the pain it is to get to that point.

Again, some numbers would be helpful. Real numbers, not this-is-based-solely-on-my-personal-experience guesstimates.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

I am not saying a 6L will make a monster encounter go easier on me. I am saying that 4L can already make the game plenty easy. However some builds will not work with less than 5L and some builds will 100% need a 6L to work because by virtue of their passives/interaction of gems it cannot work with any less. Different builds owrk differently. Some will ask less links to work, but they are for the most part streamlined and boring, what everyone uses because they don't have the economy to do anything else. Others will ask more links. At the end of the day they will be just as effective at doing the job they are meant to do, but they just cannot work with the same amount of links because they differ in the way they play and the gems interact.

Wouldn't then everyone having a 6L make the monster encounter easier across the board?

"

Elhazzared wrote:

When everyone you know played the game and has quit in under 2 weeks, that pretty much says a lot. Add that to the fact that 90% of the active people you see in the market are always the same (with a small degree of variety accounted for different time periods) and that pretty much sums up that the quit rate is very high. Want more? Why is it that all the people posting builds are always the same? It's the same rich people. ture, not everyone knows how to make a proper build, but many people would be posting builds and refining them as they got advice from the people who'll be able to math the build to the most minuscle atom. It doesn't happens however. always the same people coming up with builds because it's the people who have the kind of wealth to be able to mess with 6L. They also put the streamlined 4L builds as service which is nice of them but really always the same people because it's where the wealth is. those who don't cannot make builds and in the vast majority of cases prefer to give up playing than the pain it is to get to that point.

I am not saying a 6L will make a monster encounter go easier on me. I am saying that 4L can already make the game plenty easy. However some builds will not work with less than 5L and some builds will 100% need a 6L to work because by virtue of their passives/interaction of gems it cannot work with any less. Different builds owrk differently. Some will ask less links to work, but they are for the most part streamlined and boring, what everyone uses because they don't have the economy to do anything else. Others will ask more links. At the end of the day they will be just as effective at doing the job they are meant to do, but they just cannot work with the same amount of links because they differ in the way they play and the gems interact.

Sigh...

Yeah, it says a lot about you and your group of friends. A bunch of typical 7th generation gamers. You want it all and you want it now, if the game doesn't deliver, you demand it to be brought down to your level or you quit. If it is brought down to your level you quit anyway since you run out of things to do in 2 weeks (saw your comment about TL2). You didn't even make it to the mapping phase and you're already downtalking Atziri's Disfavour which is a weapon that drops from a boss that can take months to farm for even the most dedicated players.

Your statements about builds requiring 6Ls is simply absurd. I played with pretty much every skill in the game and I can pledge my left testicle and say that only CoC builds require 6 links to be really effective (CoC builds require heavy, very specific gearing for other gear pieces as well). For the rest, 5L is more than enough and as many people before me have shown you, a 5L are more than readily accessible for everyone. What are you discussing here anymore?

There are new leagues coming in 5 days. Everyone starts from the same point, the beginning. Rise up to the challenge and learn the game mechanics, basic vendor recipes and effective ways to collect currency. Forsaken Masters made self-found very possible as well if you really dislike trading.

If you need help theorycrafting a build for a specific skill you like, there are more than plenty of people who will gladly help you at Gameplay Help or Gameplay Discussion. I'm sure they'll find you a way to create an effective build with a good 4L or cheap 5L that works with the skills you want to play with.

Your first post was good feedback for the devs showing the problems first time players encounter. Maybe vendor recipes or more tutorial on the depth of the game should be shown better instead of leaving it for the players' responsibility to find it out themselves. But for the last few pages it seems like this thread isn't going anywhere.

"

Grughal wrote:

"

Elhazzared wrote:

When everyone you know played the game and has quit in under 2 weeks, that pretty much says a lot. Add that to the fact that 90% of the active people you see in the market are always the same (with a small degree of variety accounted for different time periods) and that pretty much sums up that the quit rate is very high. Want more? Why is it that all the people posting builds are always the same? It's the same rich people. ture, not everyone knows how to make a proper build, but many people would be posting builds and refining them as they got advice from the people who'll be able to math the build to the most minuscle atom. It doesn't happens however. always the same people coming up with builds because it's the people who have the kind of wealth to be able to mess with 6L. They also put the streamlined 4L builds as service which is nice of them but really always the same people because it's where the wealth is. those who don't cannot make builds and in the vast majority of cases prefer to give up playing than the pain it is to get to that point.

I am not saying a 6L will make a monster encounter go easier on me. I am saying that 4L can already make the game plenty easy. However some builds will not work with less than 5L and some builds will 100% need a 6L to work because by virtue of their passives/interaction of gems it cannot work with any less. Different builds owrk differently. Some will ask less links to work, but they are for the most part streamlined and boring, what everyone uses because they don't have the economy to do anything else. Others will ask more links. At the end of the day they will be just as effective at doing the job they are meant to do, but they just cannot work with the same amount of links because they differ in the way they play and the gems interact.

Sigh...

Yeah, it says a lot about you and your group of friends. A bunch of typical 7th generation gamers. You want it all and you want it now, if the game doesn't deliver, you demand it to be brought down to your level or you quit. If it is brought down to your level you quit anyway since you run out of things to do in 2 weeks (saw your comment about TL2). You didn't even make it to the mapping phase and you're already downtalking Atziri's Disfavour which is a weapon that drops from a boss that can take months to farm for even the most dedicated players.

Your statements about builds requiring 6Ls is simply absurd. I played with pretty much every skill in the game and I can pledge my left testicle and say that only CoC builds require 6 links to be really effective (CoC builds require heavy, very specific gearing for other gear pieces as well). For the rest, 5L is more than enough and as many people before me have shown you, a 5L are more than readily accessible for everyone. What are you discussing here anymore?

There are new leagues coming in 5 days. Everyone starts from the same point, the beginning. Rise up to the challenge and learn the game mechanics, basic vendor recipes and effective ways to collect currency. Forsaken Masters made self-found very possible as well if you really dislike trading.

If you need help theorycrafting a build for a specific skill you like, there are more than plenty of people who will gladly help you at Gameplay Help or Gameplay Discussion. I'm sure they'll find you a way to create an effective build with a good 4L or cheap 5L that works with the skills you want to play with.

Your first post was good feedback for the devs showing the problems first time players encounter. Maybe vendor recipes or more tutorial on the depth of the game should be shown better instead of leaving it for the players' responsibility to find it out themselves. But for the last few pages it seems like this thread isn't going anywhere.

You can't blame everyone who tires of the game. Out of 20 people I know, almost all of whom played diablo 2 back in the day and have been playing games for long before that, I am the only one who still plays. They all were either confused, turned off by the grind from the get-go, or eventually tired of the grind.

I on the other hand stick with the game to keep making weird builds. This however means I'm stuck in standard a lot of the time, cause trying to make anything remotely interesting in a timed league requires putting in tons of hours a day in order to afford things. Then there's the super expensive 6 links, which are what allow for the most build diversity: you can actually make a CoMK character for example, because you'll have more than a single support to increase your ever-necessary DPS.

This is speaking as someone who happened to get a non-tabula 6L on standard completely by accident and has been enjoying it for a long time. I'm not bitter, but like charan said in the first reply, the most fun part of the game (augmenting skills and builds) is heavily brought down by the required grinding; 6-links are the epitome of the grind in this game.

Quixote77 - I would back it up with numbers however no one can back it up with number when GGG doesn't has the numbers for everyone to see. The truth however is plain obvious. The vast majority quit this game because they cannot get their 5L nor 6L. This is an undeniable reality whether you want to admit it or not.

Again, making 6L easily available wouldn't make anything easier across the board. Some 4L builds already trivialise the vast majority of the content and only some enemy types can be dangerous. When some 4L already make things this easy, it's not like a 6L will make the game any easier than it already is! It will only offer the required variety to try other builds than the streamlined 4Ls.

Grughal - Said like a true elitist. Please look at me, I've farmed for 500+ hours to be able to do anything I like in the game and I enjoy having to play with a painfuly boring build until I can build my own and if others don't agree with my masochistic tendencies then they can go elsewhere where I don't even have to see them... sorry to break it to you but that is not how a good game works and giving 5L and 6L to players at the right levels is not handing out everything. It's giving the bare minimum! but that's ok, you're just another elitist so I won't waste my time any further on you.

Wooser69 - Yeah, I can't blame that everyone who quits the game did so because they felt the game had a really bad design, some people who quit have played for months and eventually they move to the next. This is a natural state of events. There are a few who stay for a very long run, there are some who stay for some months, get to end game and generally get their fun out of the game before it starts getting too repetitive, then they hop out. But again, there is a very high drop rate within the very first month of the game because of builds not being archievable due to the most basic of equipment mising. It's not that they lack that unique or that rare with perfect stats, they miss the 5L and the 6L they need to progress the build, pure and simple. 5L and 6L are not something that gives you the kind of power that you shouldn't have, if it was then it wouldn't even be allowed to exist. They are the things that give you diversity to play with.

I agree that you should be required to grind in order to get the really good stuff. But I'll never agree that you should have to grind in order to have the possibillity to diversify your builds. It's like killing 80% of the content to anyone who doesn't has several hundreds of hours into the game.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

Quixote77 - I would back it up with numbers however no one can back it up with number when GGG doesn't has the numbers for everyone to see. The truth however is plain obvious. The vast majority quit this game because they cannot get their 5L nor 6L. This is an undeniable reality whether you want to admit it or not.

Again, making 6L easily available wouldn't make anything easier across the board. Some 4L builds already trivialise the vast majority of the content and only some enemy types can be dangerous. When some 4L already make things this easy, it's not like a 6L will make the game any easier than it already is! It will only offer the required variety to try other builds than the streamlined 4Ls.

Grughal - Said like a true elitist. Please look at me, I've farmed for 500+ hours to be able to do anything I like in the game and I enjoy having to play with a painfuly boring build until I can build my own and if others don't agree with my masochistic tendencies then they can go elsewhere where I don't even have to see them... sorry to break it to you but that is not how a good game works and giving 5L and 6L to players at the right levels is not handing out everything. It's giving the bare minimum! but that's ok, you're just another elitist so I won't waste my time any further on you.

Wooser69 - Yeah, I can't blame that everyone who quits the game did so because they felt the game had a really bad design, some people who quit have played for months and eventually they move to the next. This is a natural state of events. There are a few who stay for a very long run, there are some who stay for some months, get to end game and generally get their fun out of the game before it starts getting too repetitive, then they hop out. But again, there is a very high drop rate within the very first month of the game because of builds not being archievable due to the most basic of equipment mising. It's not that they lack that unique or that rare with perfect stats, they miss the 5L and the 6L they need to progress the build, pure and simple. 5L and 6L are not something that gives you the kind of power that you shouldn't have, if it was then it wouldn't even be allowed to exist. They are the things that give you diversity to play with.

I agree that you should be required to grind in order to get the really good stuff. But I'll never agree that you should have to grind in order to have the possibillity to diversify your builds. It's like killing 80% of the content to anyone who doesn't has several hundreds of hours into the game.

How about instead of hiding behind the elitist -card, you try to comprehend what others are telling you?

500+ hours is ~21 days. That's 3 weeks. People reach level 95 in a week. Time to project your habits of playing instead of blaming it on the game? Sorry to break this for you, you're bad at this game but that's fine as long if you enjoy playing the game. What's not fine is the fact you don't enjoy the game, and thus you shouldn't play it. Plain and simple. The majority of game has to be balanced around the "good players", that's how a good game works.

One more time, the game does indirectly hand you (and everyone else who wants one) a 5L in form of currencies (3-5c eqv. will get you one, you'll find this amount of currency before finishing normal). 6L is an absolute luxury (or use tabula rasa if you absolutely need a 6L, it's cheap and requires no coloring) and intended design and conscious decision from devs. It's not going to change anytime soon. On this point we can only agree to disagree.

About your comment of killing 80% of the content... name me one build that can not be done with low budget outside of CoC and low life builds (and even low life builds could mainly be done on low budget). Those 2 forms of builds are hardly 80% of the content.