The main source of frustation, especially for new players

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Elhazzared wrote:

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Quixote77 wrote:

More than a few have left because of this frustration, yes, but who's to say GGG haven't crunched their numbers and deemed it an acceptable attrition rate for a demographic they weren't particularly targeting in the first place?

While all games have a target demographic, I don't think poE is a game that target a very small player base, this is teh kind of game that prospers from lots of players, not few.

The game probably makes money on its niche selling point: its grindiness. And acquiring a 5 and, especially, a 6L is a big part of it by design. Until a direct f2p competitor comes along that successfully does what you want in POE and challenges its top spot in this long-tail market of very grindey, very exclusive, very noob-unfriendly online action RPGs, this feature is here to stay.

Optimizing the game engine and making trade more accessible are much bigger fishes to fry IMO. The frustration you and your friends feel are real but it wouldn't matter until the numbers say so.

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derriesen wrote:

The disadvantage would be "more know it all" & "give me everything, now" players. More is not allways better. More players doesnt automatically translate into more supporters.

With more players you'll get more trolls yes, it does come with the territory, but you also get more funding... players that want everything? Who cares, they still are not going to get that but the rate of abandonment would significantly lower because people would get the chance to always keep up their character progression. You already get players who want everything and just leave the game when they don't. But it is an error to associate those players with players who simply want the freedom to be able to keep up their character progression. It's the minimum you expect out of any game that has character progression.

And more players translates into more supports. While you cannot correlate that every x amount of players give you X amount money, you can expect that if you get say, 2000 more players, some of them will spend money... Also the more players you have the more people you have advertising your game and thus bringing more people in who might also spend money on the game and stay for a long time. I'm sure this is nothing new to you however you still insist that a better game and more players is a bad thing.

Quixote77 - Yes the game has a niche point. While it appeals to the hack and slash players it appeals more to hardcore players by making the game harder and also focus on gear and trade (obviously grinding for gear is part of any hack and slash, not really specific to this one).

At the moment aquiring 5L and 6L is part of the grind which is again wrong, it's like making character progression a rarity level. You can be a level 60 common character if you have a 5L, a level 60 magic character if you have a 5L or a level 60 rare character if you have 6L. It's ridiculous to say the least. Giving 5L and 6L will not make the game any more noob friendly. It will allow character progression and build diversity.

You may be right in saying that PoE has no direct F2P competitor and it is a shame that it doesn't however I can understand the why. Who would make a game that is almost the same as PoE except with the sole difference of a proper socket/link sistem. If someone made a F2P hack and slash it would obviously try to be different, not the same with the frustation removed. But yeah, it would be great if there was proper competition, it would get the developers moving sooner.

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Elhazzared wrote:

At the moment aquiring 5L and 6L is part of the grind which is again wrong, it's like making character progression a rarity level. You can be a level 60 common character if you have a 5L, a level 60 magic character if you have a 5L or a level 60 rare character if you have 6L. It's ridiculous to say the least. Giving 5L and 6L will not make the game any more noob friendly. It will allow character progression and build diversity.

It's not that rare in online games, a lot of them gate character progression behind RNG. Mostly through some sort of 'skill enhancement' scrolls or somewhat. At least GGG isn't offering "6L stones" that are able to link an item instantly for microtransaction points.

Because those other games do.

They aren't doing pay2win which is good yes. But any game that has a serious buisness model isn't gating character progression behind any kind of wall. At least none that I can think of.

Yeah, well, then I wholeheartedly envy you for not even trying to play the kind of garbage I did.

Actually, those exact scrolls I mentioned can be found in a sidescrolling loot-driven beat 'em up platformer called 'Elsword'. The thing about that game is you're getting normal functionality out of your skills by putting passive points in them, so far so good. However, you can also apply 'skill notes' to them and give them some extra oomph, in some cases even extreme oomph. Those scrolls are rare-as-fuck and extremely valuable ingame (and also available in their cash shop).

Also, to unlock some skills and even advance your class to final form you need to do certain quests which require a decent amount of farming for certain rare-ish drops (also skippable via cash shop). Now that's core RNG progression if I ever saw one.

That's probably very similar to 6 links, it's something not required to beat the content but it makes life easier. You should also keep in mind that game I mentioned has a lively PvP scene, unlike PoE, and advantages of noted skills are able to give you a nice edge.

Oh I've seen the game on steam, the anime girls were cute enough to get my attention but sidescrollers are not my kind of game so never tried it. A freind of mine did but didn't liked the game anyway.

Anyway that is a fair evidence of a fremium game, not a F2P... You can also calle it a P2W. Sure you can get those things, you only have to no life the game for a year or two and then you'll have what others pay to get in the first day of game.

Here 6L do are rare for everyone in the begining but some people get enough currency to buy whatever the hell they want but it's still a fair system. of course it's not a good system but it is fair, it's the same for everyone, no one gets an advantage with real life money.

Course I did my fair share of P2W back in the day, remember playing one for a week, completly free, made a guy spend about 50 euros every single day just to catch up to me XD.

well Raics, an ARPG is never really about the content, is it?
RPGs and adventure games are mostly about content, story and lore - but an ARPG usually puts those away from the centre of the stage, in favour of one thing: loot.

just like Diablo/Baal in Diablo games, Ordrak/Netherlord in the Torchlight series, or Typhon/Hades in Titan Quest - you can safely say you "beat the game" once you've slain Dominus on the highest difficulty, after a final epic battle.

but now that you did and feel truly badass - what's next?
the answer is pretty straightforward: game isn't over until you can get the best stuff for your character, and even then it's not - because you'll just make another character to kill Dominus and get the best stuff for.
and another.
and another.
and another...

and you'll do all the side quests again to get the loot. uber quests. end-game...
and you'll read all the lore to make sure you know everything about the loot you have, and study each minor mechanic to know how to get the best out of your loot...

well 'thing about Path Of Exile is, if you aren't trading for a rather large percentage of your playing time, the game doesn't really hint you in any way, shape or form, that the loot you so crave can actually be obtained.
that, or it can just hand it to you no-questions-asked - which is equally bad.

it would, if it had risk/reward.
if you felt like if you roll this next map even crazier than the previous one, beat the guy who's giving orders to the insane boss you just beat, and get better at surviving stuff that's here to bite your head off - you will get the loot you deserve.

this is a wall of text already so I'll just summarize:

a good loot-based ARPG holds a carrot on a stick in front of you, but lets you taste it when you deserve it. and most importantly: lets you know you'll get a bite at the carrot if/when you're good enough.

Path Of Exile? it's good as an RPG, an adventure. it's got great lore and atmoshpere, and it's awesome as a character-planner. but it's utter crap as a loot-based ARPG.
because when the player feels like he/she's biting the carrot (or not) as a function of RNG alone - no matter if behind the scenes it's actually true or not - that's a huge fail.

and when the "carrot" isn't really a carrot, but is actually just another catalyst to get you to trade for the real thing on the flipper's black market - that's where a huge fail turns into a massive calamity of biblical proportions.

john: I find the talk of 'beating the game' disturbing. PoE, like any MMO (notice I'm not pointing at ARPGs, but the enduring online status of the game), aims to keep the player involved for as long as possible. Like, for years. It doesn't hand you things on a platter for a good reason.

You may feel frustrated at times, but you're actually describing many online games which have been consigned to the dustbin because they had a defined endpoint, 'signposts' all along the way, fairly consistent returns of items of X power when you beat monster of Y difficulty, and everyone quit when they got to the point where, at X hours played, you almost invariably had the thing you always wanted. While playing a single MUD for nigh upon 18 years, I watched thousands get made and die off. The one I was playing had an attenuating reward scale that stretched into infinity (it was a great design), so you never reached 'that' point.

To the OP - please stop making assertions such as:
"So many people leave because of the lack of gear progression!"
"Gear progression is not build progression!"

You have no data to back the first, and the second is not something you get to decide, not having written the game and all ;)

I have enough data when all the people I know and tried the game quit because of that reason. All but the one I'm still playing but he's new to the game as well and I'm preventing him from leavign by buying him a few things, like a 5L armor if it's needed of a decent upgrade for a weapon if the build is required since his build is heavly reliant of a good weapon. But of course I do it so long as it's not too expensive and at least part of it comes from what he finds but not all since he just cannot get enough.

I don't have the data of everyone who has played and stoped playing, even GGG doesn't has that because while they can have the data of how many people played and stoped playing, it's unlikely they know why everyone quit, however early giving up on the game can mean only one of two things. Either they outright don't like the game but that will mean very early quiting, like not even a day of gameplay. Or smething is deeply wrong with the game in their eyes for them to just give it up after a decent while... In all cases I've been exposed to, whether or not a small sample the answer to why people quit was always the same. Can't get more linked sockets to progress my build.

And gear progression is not character/build progression. They are two different things. I don't get to decide how much the game choses to tie them together, however they are two different things, this much is true.

Having the game make it hard to get a 5L is the same as saying. You know, the level cap is 100 but we'll not allow you to level past 35 unless you either buy this overpriced item from player X or get incredibly lucky with a drop... Odds are you'll farm for several hundred hours... Then upon reaching level 50, we will do it again, but if the price to get it from player X was already high before, now it's more of a case of file and forget cause you won't have several exalts at hand to buy a 6L.

Now of course you'll say you don't stop leveling which is tecnicly true, but you are being denied improving your skills by being denied the number of links that your build should have at that point.

Using the orbs is like playing RNG simulator but rather than actually giving you a 1 in 100 chances, you get a 1 in a billion or worse... At least that what it feels like and I'm sure everyone will relate to the odds.

You do are right that a well designed game will keep you playing by making you roll new characters or wanting to acomplish a few more things with your current one. I completly agree to this. The moment a game presents you with a, you beat the content, game over it's highly unlikely you'll keep playing after it. However one thing is the game making you look for that item or that amount of items you need, meanwhile keeping you wanting to get more currency either to finish this build or getting the basic stuff you need for the next great one you want to try. There is no need to hinder character progression, players will already have plenty of reasons to keep playing.

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johnKeys wrote:

a good loot-based ARPG holds a carrot on a stick in front of you, but lets you taste it when you deserve it. and most importantly: lets you know you'll get a bite at the carrot if/when you're good enough.

Path Of Exile? it's good as an RPG, an adventure. it's got great lore and atmoshpere, and it's awesome as a character-planner. but it's utter crap as a loot-based ARPG.
because when the player feels like he/she's biting the carrot (or not) as a function of RNG alone - no matter if behind the scenes it's actually true or not - that's a huge fail.

Yes, it is, and I fully agree there is very little risk/reward factor, that the endgame farming is boring and the combat is as tactical as an assault on a viet cong outpost by John Rambo. And I said so on more than several occasions. Unfortunately, this seems to be the vision of this game that devs followed all this time, god forbid that I hinder anyone from living his dream. Because the suggestions we make here (at least ones that would have some effect) would pretty require changing the game experience from ground up, they won't do that if they're at least a bit happy with current state of affairs.

And yes, it's a fail, but we probably should accept the game looks 'as intended' by now. I feel that forsaken masters are probably the ultimate level of RNG control the game will offer, we won't get more than that, so those that stay in hopes for more can leave right away with no regrets.

Truth be told, masters were much more than I hoped for, crafting methods that I proposed over the years were both less effective and much more restrictive.