The main source of frustation, especially for new players

"

Elhazzared wrote:

It makes 6L not be a prized coodity yes. But them being a prized comodity is wrong in the very first place... That is not Exciting loot as you call it. It's goddamn finally I can make my build which was being held back for so long I just felt like quiting altoghter! Exciting loot is a. Oh look at this great piece with suh a perfect combo of affixes for my character!

No it wouldn't be only for a couple of levels. players do go for the. Oh look, this one has a great clear speed and that one is 10% lower. Who cares if it's 10% lower clear speed if it's a build that you like? people are being streamlined into certain 4L or 5L combos exactly because there is no freedom to do otherwise since the system that was put in place prevents progress and diversity.

I agree with this sentiment. Also, I could say the same thing for uniques. Builds should not be gated behind having a certain piece of gear that is difficult to obtain. It's bad design. Really good gear should improve your character a lot, sure, but the build should still be able to FUNCTION without those uniques or a 6L. And most (if not all) builds simply do not. It's a design flaw imo. But it's what we have I guess.

"

Quixote77 wrote:

Whether it's wrong or right, it's in place. That's the point I'm making; an easily obtained 6L changes the landscape of the game. It isn't as simplistic or isolated a change which you make it out to be.

And no, not really. If you think people are already streamlined into certain 4L or 5L combos, what makes you think an extra linked socket will create a much bigger diversity of skill usage with the current set of gems?

Obtaining a 6L easily would change the landscape of the market, not the game itself! there are people going around in 6L aren't there? Does that makes the game any different? No, they just have the diversity to make the builds they want! It would change the market abusive price on items with 6L or 5L, in fact those things would stop being relevant as far as the market is concerned. What would be considered for the market is how good the item actually is and not whether it has 6L or not. Of course, people who have a lot of items, especially 6L are not happy to see a change that will devalue their items which they wouldn't like since they want to keep selling those items at pornographic prices so they can spend that currency in trying to craft their wet dream item.

People are streamlined into 4L because getting a 5L or 6L is very hard and expensive. If they were easy to get or had a reasonable cost to craft then people wouldn't be forced into streamline builds, they could go out and do whatever they'd like. Things that work only in 5L or even in 6L.

Legatus - I wouldn't agree on the unique sentiment there. Many builds are made around taking advantage of a certain unique because it gives them some keystone from the tree and allows them to save a lot of passives and so on. But they are certainly not the only builds going around or viable or even streamlined. In fact I don't feel like unique builds are streamlined, they are pretty much the get rich and try it... Streamlined builds require you to buy next to nothing except maybe a few gems.

Use a Tabula rosa if u want a cheap 6L. otherwise play the 20 builds that can do 75 maps with just a 4L.

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SteveZ wrote:

Use a Tabula rosa if u want a cheap 6L. otherwise play the 20 builds that can do 75 maps with just a 4L.

Well at least this time you did say something in a non offensive way, that is an improvement, as such i'll asnwer you polietely although if you had been following the thread you'd already know what I have to say about tabula rasa.

1 exalt is anything but cheap, I don't even have 1 exalt, maybe if I could sell a lot of armourer scraps and if they at least traded 1:1 with alts then yeah, I could conceivably have enough for an exalt. Now here's the problem.

The tabula rasa has no defensive stat. while I don't value too much affixes because those can be easily changed with scour/alch, the base defense is needed. Survivabilly is always a problem and with tabula I just don't have it. No energy shield to eitehr make use or convert to mana, no evasion to avoid damage, no armor to mitigate damage.

And yes, I could play any other uninspired build like some people do. It is unsatisfying.

I ask you this though. Do you feel it appropriate for any game to tell you? Play me for 500+ before you can start to enjoy me.

If you feel this appropriate then I guess it's your personal preference, but don't put everyone else in the same boat as you. The vast majority of people like to enjoy a game from the moment they start playing.

"

Kranyum wrote:

I think this is made worse by the fact that there currently exist 2 kinds of support gems:
- those which add Raw Power (like WED, Melee Phys, Added Lightning, Faster Casting, etc) - these are usually very efficient but overall boring and
- those which change how the skill behave or add an aditional bonus (GMP, Fork, Melee Splash, Stun, Knockback, Blind) - these are cool but sometimes less efficient

The problem, I believe, lies with the fact that someone can come up with a brilliant setup where you change how the skill works through interesting skill gems but you will lack the damage because you are not adding enough of the raw dps gems into the mix.

A way of separating these would be great.

This. Supports are too tied to DPS for any complexity to occur, which is sad.

In a perfect world everyone would have 6 links but there'd be a cap of 3 offensive supports, forcing the use of defensive or utility ones. You can actually fairly easily catagorise each gem, so this wouldn't even be hard to implement.

Sadly everyone is too balls-deep into the games retarded economy. By this point you may as well have 2handed 8-links, it's not like the average player ever gets to use a 6L beyond tabula.

I don't belive you are correct in there. Surely some builds are not viable due to the lack of DPS, that is an inevitability. Just like you cannot have everything. But one of the most inspired builds I've seen and would like to try myself is song of fire and ice. You use in a 6L spectral trow, add cast on critical, fireball and arctic breath, now add greater multiple projectiles and all that is left is a single support gem to augment DPS. Of course through several spells being autocast you end up with lots of DPS in the end but the point remains that you can get creative with what you have, so long as you have a 6L to serve you.

My atempt at a build would have been lightning tendrils with blood mana and life leach increased area, this leaves just enough for spell echo and faster casting, with items that also give me life on hit from spell, huge tick rate to recover life, then complement with dodge, block and evasion. the problem stops short on the evasion though a tabula rasa could tecnicly make it just block/dodge viable. just not as great as I want it to be.

You can do inspired things with the system as it is, you just need those 5L and 6L to be readly available so people can mess up with things and create those really awesome builds.

"

Wooser69 wrote:

This. Supports are too tied to DPS for any complexity to occur, which is sad.

In a perfect world everyone would have 6 links but there'd be a cap of 3 offensive supports, forcing the use of defensive or utility ones. You can actually fairly easily catagorise each gem, so this wouldn't even be hard to implement.

That would be a kind of interesting idea I suppose, I mean have socket numbers, socket links, socket colours and the number of combat/support gems supported by the equipment.

I mean for example:

Armour with 2R, 1B Sockets linked, can only equip 1 support gem in the item.
Armour with 4R, 2B Sockets linked, can only equip 3 support gem in the item.

etc. it would add a bit more thought in to gem setups and add a bit more diversity for items, but then again, the game already has way too much RNG.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

Obtaining a 6L easily would change the landscape of the market, not the game itself! there are people going around in 6L aren't there? Does that makes the game any different? No, they just have the diversity to make the builds they want! It would change the market abusive price on items with 6L or 5L, in fact those things would stop being relevant as far as the market is concerned. What would be considered for the market is how good the item actually is and not whether it has 6L or not. Of course, people who have a lot of items, especially 6L are not happy to see a change that will devalue their items which they wouldn't like since they want to keep selling those items at pornographic prices so they can spend that currency in trying to craft their wet dream item.

From the official description of the game, "It is designed around a strong barter-based online item economy". So, yes, the market is a big part of the game. It factors into the rarity of a 6L.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

People are streamlined into 4L because getting a 5L or 6L is very hard and expensive. If they were easy to get or had a reasonable cost to craft then people wouldn't be forced into streamline builds, they could go out and do whatever they'd like. Things that work only in 5L or even in 6L.

Again, no, you're overstating the diversity. Take your dream build for example. Yes, a 6L would be nice, but it's just as viable in a 5L, simply get leech on gear and perhaps get vaal pact in the meantime while you search/craft a 6L. The damage output would be the same. Use a ar/es armor to get the gem colors and instead of evasion, you could focus on armor and energy shield in addition to the block and dodge.

You can do inspired things with the system as it is.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

I don't belive you are correct in there. Surely some builds are not viable due to the lack of DPS, that is an inevitability. Just like you cannot have everything. But one of the most inspired builds I've seen and would like to try myself is song of fire and ice. You use in a 6L spectral trow, add cast on critical, fireball and arctic breath, now add greater multiple projectiles and all that is left is a single support gem to augment DPS. Of course through several spells being autocast you end up with lots of DPS in the end but the point remains that you can get creative with what you have, so long as you have a 6L to serve you.

My atempt at a build would have been lightning tendrils with blood mana and life leach increased area, this leaves just enough for spell echo and faster casting, with items that also give me life on hit from spell, huge tick rate to recover life, then complement with dodge, block and evasion. the problem stops short on the evasion though a tabula rasa could tecnicly make it just block/dodge viable. just not as great as I want it to be.

You can do inspired things with the system as it is, you just need those 5L and 6L to be readly available so people can mess up with things and create those really awesome builds.

That build requires a 5L.

There is no problem with barter being a big part of the game. It is a problem if the barter actually hinders the gameplay! And it does hinders the gameplay by trying to force people into streamlined builds for a very long time until they have enough currency to stop doing it. Why do most people who play this game quit it? Exactly because of that. A high quit rate in any game indicates there is a big problem with it... some people do not mind the problem, they have the endurance to tolerate it for a very long while until it stops being a problem, the vast majority of people don't however!

This will also to further the problem because the people who at this point just have enough money to just have any item in the game whenever they want will end up rubbing wrong on those who can't do anything because that's exactly how much wealth they have. It's not that they rub off just by having more wealth, it's because they can do whatever they want and want to force the perpective of spending several hundreds of hours of playing the game in a way that is not satisfying just so that they can finally enjoy the game. A game is about having fun and as most people do. If they are not having fun, they quit and find another game to play. In my case I only play this game because right now I have no other better hack and slash option available and because quite frankly, I don't have anything else that I feel like playing at all. Otherwise I'd pretty much call my time on PoE a waste of a time trying to get to the point where I will have fun.

As for the other point. Leech in gear? Really? Last I checked leeching from spells was something that was incredibly rare. Another case of pay in the order of exalts to get and given that you use blood magic and spend your life to cast, add to this damage you take from enemies and you don't need to have a bit of leech, you need a sick ton of leeching to sustain. Oh and in the case I wasn't specific enough. You use blood magic in the form of a gem, not the passive from the tree because it's way too far and it requires spending way more points than I have available. In fact the build would be completly unviable DPS wise if it wasn't for Cybil's paw.