The main source of frustation, especially for new players

"

silverdash wrote:

Here is a tip: Learn the game. Like I said, you don't learn it in under 500 hours.

...Dang, that is some hardcore elitism.

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grant_m wrote:

"

silverdash wrote:

5. regal it and stick with the results (no matter what)

This is where your plan falls apart. It's highly unlikely to find a Regal (5 link aside - also unlikely) within the time frame you're suggesting.

Good plan otherwise.

<removed>

If you can't find a single *** chaos orb to buy ur 5L (I just checked it) and can't find another 2 chaos in value and then whine on the forums (or whatever) then... I have no words for it.
Also you can do without the regal and master mod but whatever. You guys know it all!

A regal is to be traded obviously and costs 1 - 2 chaos depending on league. Exilebro it. Jesus.

And yes PoE is for the elitist only if you want 2x 6L uniques and want to have op damage AND still survivability.
Also the lack of an ingame poe.trade/exilebro promotes item flipping and using bots to scan the forums. PoE once again promotes elitist gameplay. I never ever got the feeling that PoE was meant for casual play unless you consider lvl 60 endgame like some of my Steam friends: "Cool I beat Dominus on Merciless! I beat the game!". Then they quit.

Okay fair enough, my apologies. I probably overestimate new players.

But PoE is just not friendly to completely new players. They need at least some friends to help them out and even then... This is one of the highest skill-cap games I have ever seen.
Even most moba games are more friendly than PoE imo. Or maybe I just suck at PoE myself for being a slow learner.

Just about every aspect, from the low item drop ratios to the complex crafting/currency system, all make it really really hard for new players. And I bet that most newbies actually vendor a lot of valuable items that they should have sold to players. Not to mention buying overpriced stuff that make people like me rich sometimes.

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silverdash wrote:

I'm sorry I thought you had problems with 5L after 200+ hours. My bad about that.

But still it's EXTREMELY cheap:

"

You can claim that you only need a 4L to play the game and you are correct. But I claim that 5L and 6L are required for anything other than the most basic builds and they are expensive!

1. Get lvl 55-57 (I get lvl 50 in like one day of hardcore grinding, on existing leagues even faster with double Perandus and boosts). So a newbie could do this in 3-4 days on non-hardcore easily.
2. Buy a random 5l armor for 1 chaos (chose only between armor/eva/ES regarding stats).
3. scour it (if required). Then transmute it.
4. Throw some alts on it (you should have 40-80 alts by the time you reach lvl 55). Also augment it when you get a good alt-roll. Augments are practically free and have almost no value anyway.
5. regal it and stick with the results (no matter what).
6. Put a master mod on it.

Total cost: 1-4 chaos, ~60 alts, 20 augs, 1 regal, 1 transmute, possible scouring. This you can farm easily while leveling. But you got a 5L to dish out some serious damage. It's not optimal but it can carry you to level ~88-89 while still being able to carry quiet some parties.

If all else fails, Buy a 5l gray item, alc it once and stick to that. Use masters to cap resist and start mapping with your 5L. Until level ~88 you can go glass cannon anyway as long as you got the 5L/6L for damage and at least no negative resists other than chaos. Get tabula if you have to.

Personally, I cannot get to that level in a day, not even in 3 or 4. While I have some time to play, I don't intend to spend 12+ hours playing per day. You'll find most people have a job and have what? 2 to 4 hours a day max! more on weekends sure, but they also have family obligations. As for me it takes me about 2 days to clear normal with some time left to play for a little bit in cruel... But let's look at this from a newbie perpective and that is going to be in most cases, vclear the whole level and spend more time than necessary. they will take a very long time to get to those levels. Add dying quite a bit due to the lack of knowledge and they don't get thee that fast!

You say buy a random 5L armor for 1 chaos. I'll go as far as say, sure you can get a mixed armor for 1 or 2 chaos, but like I said, they are bad! Going with that or a tabula rasa is practicly the same, they have no defense.

Also it's your experience that glass cannon work very well. It's my experience that it doesn't. I'm sorry but no survivabillity is just something that i quite literally cannot live with. Without enough life, enough damage mitigation/evasion there is no way most people will do well. It's the kinda thing a good player with knowledge of the game and probably a character that has a very high movement rate (like +30 boots and maybe even some extra from the passive tree or maybe another item or two) can do. The newbie player cannot and will not survive playing as a glass cannon. Heck even I am not a newbie and I don't deal with that too well, let alone a newbie.

The regal yeah it can be traded but odds are a newbie is not into trading at this point yet nor does he knows about .xyz so there's that, same for the armor.

Try to think like a newbie for a moment. You know nothing about the game other than it's another hack and slash, but it's free, looks good enough and you decided to give it a go.

You will not be trading earlier on, you preconceived notiong is that trading requires a lot of money and you are just starting, you have to build some wealth first before you consider it.

You will find the support interactiong between gems at the end of act 1 when you get your first support gem. Odds are that to this point you either have died a few times to either the random boss that was too strong or maybe to brutus, but merveil, you won't know you'll need a ton of cold resistence and odds are, you'll die quite a few times before you kill them... You also took a few days to get to this point.

Even if you continue to go on odds are that by act 2 boss you will be getting your your ass kicked by the boss so hard that you'll give upand even if you don't, by act 3 you'll feel so overwelmed by everything that you just give up that character and go to the foruns to look up a good build.

So you look and you find a build that is cheap nd start doing it and you have more success depite realising that you'll need gems that you don't have and don't know where to get. Eventually you start learning a little bit about trading but you look at your wealth and say, well, the level 1 gems are cheap, let's do it. So you buy it and at the start everything goes right, until you finally run into needing your first 5L. You look at your wealth and say... Damn, this expensive? I'll just try and jeweller/fuse the first good high level item that i can use that drops.

So the item drops and you waste your gems and you don't get the results... So now what? Well you give up at this point due to the impossibillity of progressing or you look at the market.

Well, let's say there is a cheap enough but 2 types of stats armor for sale that you can use and you buy it, probably spending most of your chaos earned thus far... You then find you have even less defenses than previously and one of things you were already starting to feel problems with was exactly surviving. You die and die again, more discouraging, you lose XP because you are already in cruel and finally you decide that this game is for people with no life and masochits who died as many times as needed to get to the point where they had enough stuff to start enjoying the game and you quit.

This is what a newbie feels when he plays this, more often than not. This is what needs to be changed and it is simple to change. Making the socketing, linking and colouring better by making it so that you are always progressing. You can never get worse, only better and with increasing chances or not too expensive guaranteed success.

What makes end gear be great is not the 6L. Granted that is required to even be considered end gear (but that's more of a pre-requisite than what makes it good) but that not's what makes it good at all. It's the stats of the gear, it's the unique things they an do that no other gear does. That is what end game gear is, not the links or the colour, that is merely part of the progression and that should not be barred in any way, shape or form.

I hear what you're saying because as a newbie starting out I felt similarly, but a 6L is considered very much a prized, end-game commodity, and until GGG changes its design philosophy and the way loot works in the game, this will remain so.

Leveling & 5L:
Okay then you may level slower but you will still be lvl ~70 in 2 weeks time even with a job and crappy gear and no game-knowledge. And while leveling pre-merciless almost any build is op even without gear.

Trading:
Trading doesn't require a lot of money. But I understand that newbies don't know how to trade. Because with only a tiny bit of currency you can trade the basic items you need to sustain up to level ~90.
But that requires trade-knowledge that newbies seemingly do not have. I'm not talking about flipping, I'm only talking about the right items to buy and to prioritize the proper stats.
Exaggerated example: do not spend 20 chaos more for 1% faster cast rate. I failed at that myself early on. And only buy gear that will last until (near-)endgame. Don't waste currency on items like Limbsplitter imo as it only lasts like ~10 levels.

But you SHOULD trade early on even if you just started out. Many great items are for sale for just 1-2c. Not to mention the much needed gems that may not be available through quests for your class. Playing self-found is meh...

If you can't get a regal, take a white 5L and go with that. The stats are not really required on softcore. Especially if you use a shield you will be more than fine.

But I advise every newbie to start with an extremely cheap build. They are often boring builds and can not be improved much further even with good gear. But it's either that or get stuck in merciless and bang your head onto the wall because of low dps. Most people probably want the builds and plays they see on Twitch I assume but that's not gonna happen anytime soon for a newbie.

"

You find gear worth exalts. Well congratulation to you and your several level 90+ characters.

Not true. I often find valuable gear (relative for a poor player that is) level 55+. You just need to know that what you found is actually worth a few chaos (or more). But you need to know what's valuable and what's not. Newbies don't have that. But they can learn it over time, which sadly, can be 200+ hours. That took me even more. Because after 500+ hours I was like.. Why am I so poor... Then I figured out that estimating prices correctly and flipping = win. And of course the balance between iiq/iir/clear speed. This is one of the few hack'n slash games that does not reward players for pumping in lots of time. It only rewards people who have the knowledge and experience. That which can be highly frustrating for newbs.


Glass-cannon:
The glass-cannon approach is so good (also for newbs) because:
- The xp-penalty pre lvl 60 is almost non-existent. And levels 60-87 it's still extremely low. The gamble will almost always pay off at these levels.
- It allows you to farm items. A tank without good clear/dps is still completely useless imo.
- You learn the game faster imo. My first character has over 400 deaths I believe. My last few characters have maybe 10-20 at lvl 90 and all of those deaths pretty much because I didn't care about dying (speedrunning solo merciless with crap gear and less than 2k hp and low resists and underleveled).
- You can go 'mediocre-cannon', you don't have to go pure glass-cannon. You can just go normal-build, then take a cheap failed corrupted Tabula and you only miss only the defenses from 1 item. No biggie. But Tabula's are a more expensive than 5L's. But it should be enough for 80%+ of all builds to dish out enough damage to clear maps and to learn the game.

Yes a newbie will die a lot as a glass-cannon. But I quickly figured out (after starting out myself as a newbie) that glass-cannons are usually the way to go at first in new leagues or when low on currency and especially in regards to leveling 1-80.

Clearspeed = king. Clearspeed = more loot + more xp. And a high clearspeed nullifies dying almost completely pre lvl 80. even as a newbie imo.
And when you hit post level 90, dying doesn't matter anymore unless you go for level 100 anyway. So there is a very tiny window where dying actually matters. Therefor I ignore it.

Well it isn't so much changing their design philosophy as it is changing that particular point alone.

Even from a developer point of view it is good for their buisness. While principles shouldn't be sacrificed for buisness this isn't a case where principles are broken, it's just changing something that is faulty in the first place.

Changing this will better the experience for the new player and in fact for the vast majority of people. It makes build diversity increase much earlier rather then when you are filthy rich.

Let's not forget that a player who quits the game because he didn't liked the game progression isn't going to go back, just like I never went back to neverwinter because their progression system was beyond boring.

This means that the majority of player loss is a permanent loss. I think it's time that the leak in the pipes gets fixed. Ths is good both for the comunity because more players means more people to play with, more guilds, bigger market. More and better PVP for those who like (I personally don't but hey, to each it's own). To the developers it means more money and more money means that they can increase the team and pump out more content faster. For example, we've been waiting for an act 4 for a very long time. It seems that it is drawing near, but had they twice the funding that they have now, how long ago do you think you'd have gotten it?.. It's not that GGG doesn't wants to pump out more content and has lots of great ideas for things to implement, but it takes time to make which means paying people to do it, more people to do it, quicker it gets done. It's basic math.

"

silverdash wrote:

Leveling & 5L:
Okay then you may level slower but you will still be lvl ~70 in 2 weeks time even with a job and crappy gear and no game-knowledge. And while leveling pre-merciless almost any build is op even without gear.

Trading:
Trading doesn't require a lot of money. But I understand that newbies don't know how to trade. Because with only a tiny bit of currency you can trade the basic items you need to sustain up to level ~90.
But that requires trade-knowledge that newbies seemingly do not have. I'm not talking about flipping, I'm only talking about the right items to buy and to prioritize the proper stats.
Exaggerated example: do not spend 20 chaos more for 1% faster cast rate. I failed at that myself early on. And only buy gear that will last until (near-)endgame. Don't waste currency on items like Limbsplitter imo as it only lasts like ~10 levels.

But you SHOULD trade early on even if you just started out. Many great items are for sale for just 1-2c. Not to mention the much needed gems that may not be available through quests for your class. Playing self-found is meh...

If you can't get a regal, take a white 5L and go with that. The stats are not really required on softcore. Especially if you use a shield you will be more than fine.

But I advise every newbie to start with an extremely cheap build. They are often boring builds and can not be improved much further even with good gear. But it's either that or get stuck in merciless and bang your head onto the wall because of low dps. Most people probably want the builds and plays they see on Twitch I assume but that's not gonna happen anytime soon for a newbie.

"

You find gear worth exalts. Well congratulation to you and your several level 90+ characters.

Not true. I often find valuable gear (relative for a poor player that is) level 55+. You just need to know that what you found is actually worth a few chaos (or more). But you need to know what's valuable and what's not. Newbies don't have that. But they can learn it over time, which sadly, can be 200+ hours. That took me even more. Because after 500+ hours I was like.. Why am I so poor... Then I figured out that estimating prices correctly and flipping = win. And of course the balance between iiq/iir/clear speed.


Glass-cannon:
The glass-cannon approach is so good (also for newbs) because:
- The xp-penalty pre lvl 60 is almost non-existent. And levels 60-87 it's still extremely low. The gamble will almost always pay off at these levels.
- It allows you to farm items. A tank without good clear/dps is still completely useless imo.
- You learn the game faster imo. My first character has over 400 deaths I believe. My last few characters have maybe 10-20 at lvl 90 and all of those deaths pretty much because I didn't care about dying (speedrunning solo merciless with crap gear and less than 2k hp and low resists and underleveled).
- You can go 'mediocre-cannon', you don't have to go pure glass-cannon. You can just go normal-build, then take a cheap failed corrupted Tabula and you only miss only the defenses from 1 item. No biggie. But Tabula's are a more expensive than 5L's. But it should be enough for 80%+ of all builds to dish out enough damage to clear maps and to learn the game.

Yes a newbie will die a lot as a glass-cannon. But I quickly figured out (after starting out myself as a newbie) that glass-cannons are usually the way to go at first in new leagues or when low on currency and especially in regards to leveling 1-80.

Clearspeed = king. Clearspeed = more loot + more xp. And a high clearspeed nullifies dying almost completely pre lvl 80. even as a newbie imo.
And when you hit post level 90, dying doesn't matter anymore unless you go for level 100 anyway. So there is a very tiny window where dying actually matters. Therefor I ignore it.

My very first build with 4L many many years ago, pre steam, not even scion existed then. I went for a fire mage of my own design. All I went after was nodes that would help my fire or elemental damage (again, my first build it is obviously not going to be great). Result. Beggining of act 3 I quit. I wasn't dealing enough damage and died many time to mobs. This is the newbie first experience on normal.

Don't trivialise it to the point of you can do it naked on merciles, it isn't true even for normal, not unless your tree is decently done and you half know what you are doing.

Trading is something newbies should be doing, yes, but they don't think it is until they actually try to follow someone's build that says it's cheap and they start dweeling into the market. Even then odds are they don't have enough to go with much anything past gems. you say chaos gear is easy to get and enough. 1 chaos 5L between level 35 and 40 with a specific defense type (no mix of two) is nearly impossible and several chaos for one such armor is a waste because it's going to be useless in 10 to 15 levels where you'll need one that gives you even more defense even if you still want to keep it at 5L. Most newbies won't have several chaos to give for a 5L.

level 55+ you find a lot of things worth a few chaos. Quite frankly it isn't just newbies that don't know that, I personally can identify something that it's really good and something that isn't, as for what it is worth, well i'm starting only now to get a hang of market values and to me most things seem overly inflacted. But let's add that selling in the market means having items siting in your stash (which is just 4 slots until you actually spend money in more) and trying to actively sell them. Sure poe.xyz helps with that but you acumulate more and more and eventually there is no space. I don't imagine you'll get tons of offers for items worth a few chaos every single day and probably you have to stop playing everytime you do... The only way to farm very reliably is to really get the items which are worth a lot, cut a decent chunk out of it's value and go for a quick sale... Of course, items that are really valuable don't drop like that... Add to this that when you find an item of level 60+ rare and you are torn between, sell it unidentified and get a guaranteed chaos orb or identify it to possibly be of use to you or sell on the market. Things start to get a little blurry as to what is best to do. Because once you identify the item, the npc won't pay the chaos orb anymore!

You are right that clear speed is everything when you want to get currency. But all of my experiences with glass cannons are you die far too easily to many bosses, especially the end act ones where you die over and over again. You may have a lot of DPS but we are talking about being killed likely in one or two attacks. Heck sometimes mobs can kill you if you don't have a reliable amount of defense... You may not bother with dying, other people do and it bothers them quite a lot to constantly die.

Still that doesn't means anything. it doesn't matters that speed clear is everything. You can get clearing speed with 6L just as you can with 4L, the difference is that you allow for more diversity if you allow 6L to be relatively simple to attain.