The main source of frustation, especially for new players

I'm not hiding behind the elitist card, it's the truth, because you have put up with countless hours of farming to be able to enjoy the game you want that everyone else is put through the same horrible experience as you or maybe you just don't want your items to lose some market value in the form that 5L and 6L wouldn't be valued at pornographic prices.

People reach level 95 in a week. Well yeah, there are people who say they reach level 60 in a day. Does that reflects the majority of people? No. Especially when we take newbies in reguard we are talking about builds that will not even go past normal, a few times and then try and copy one from the foruns which will fail the moment they need a 5L or a 6L.

These people aren't even likely to get any character to cruel and if they do they don't really go much further than that.

The game does not hand you a 5L in any form. Liek I said, the vast majority of 5L go for at least 1 exalt. You can be extremely lucky to find to 4 or 5c 5L armor for sale... Again very rare and probably with several hours of trying and meanwhile not doing anything other than looking. What is 4 or 5c to a newbie. Either something they don't have or practicly all of their wealth converted... Exalts. Well even I don't have one, let alone a newbie. Let's not forget that you'll already have to buy gems during the gameplay which will means it also lowers your already very low wealth.

Tabula rasa again is a bad item, it's a test item. It doesn't has base defense. Even then you don't get it for anything less than an exalt, it's not by any means cheap, it's not something you buy with a couple chaos given how bad a base item it is.

About whether this very real problem is going to change anytime soon or not. I cannot say, odds are it isn't, and it isn't exactly because all the people who felt this problem just found it easier to give up on the game rather than coming to the foruns and tell the developers this is why they are quiting and that it needs changing. However it doesn't changes the fact that many peple quit over this and that this needs changing and I at least am doing what I can to bring the DEVs head around to this problem.

As for any build that cannot be done with budget build aside CoC. Simple, any build that requires 5L or more already isn't a budget build. It's an expensive build. You'll need at least a 5L around level 35 to 40 and then at least another 5L (preferably 6 but we'll asume it's one that works on 5L for the sake of it) around level 50 with higher base defense. This will be useful again for some levels until the defense values become too low for the content you're doing and around level 65 to 69 you'll need a last piece of armor although at 50+ I'll go as far as saying that you're finally earning enough to buy one of those armour without completly depleting your orbs and only if they are sold very cheap when compared to the prices you're asked.

4L are 20% of the content tops. Probably less. 6L as a requirement are something like 10 to 15% of the content best. 5L required is the majority of the builds. But again, required is the keyword here because while yes, most builds only require 5L, the point where they shine is at 6L which adds the extra bit of DPS to make them clear really fast as they are supposed to.

What build needs 5L at level 35? At this level with 5L you won't be able to sustain your mana.

You need 5L when you reach 70+ and start doing maps not at lev 35 halfway through cruel.

But I'd change both jeweler and defusing mechanic to: has a chance to increase number of sockets/links without removing existing and leave the chance as it is now. So even if you have 6S 5L you can still use it while dumping all your wealth on it trying for 6L.

"

gfurm wrote:

What build needs 5L at level 35? At this level with 5L you won't be able to sustain your mana.

You need 5L when you reach 70+ and start doing maps not at lev 35 halfway through cruel.

But I'd change both jeweler and defusing mechanic to: has a chance to increase number of sockets/links without removing existing and leave the chance as it is now. So even if you have 6S 5L you can still use it while dumping all your wealth on it trying for 6L.

Really, what's up with people and saying that I cannot sustain a 5L at level 35. This is WRONG!

I wasted 4 chaos to get a 5L armor at level 37 and yes, it's a waste because it will last me until around level 50. I put it on a warrior. Do you know how many mana potions do I need? None is the answer. with 2% physical damage leech you can easily leech more than you spend, heck, 1% probably would be enough.

By the same token, my lightning ball mage with a 5L which I spent far more fusings than I should to get a 5L around level 40. Never ever had any sustain problems unless I had arctic armour on and was moving, quiet and attacking I had enough sustain.

Please stop saying things that are incorrect... Yes some characters might be designed in such a way that they don't have sustain for a 5L at level 35, builds that deal elemental damage through weapons. but pure physical builds and the vast majority of mage builds have more than enough sustain on it's own. Even if you are not getting enough by a small margin, odds are you'll only ever need a single mana flask to sustain any boss fights, mobs won't need and what you spent too much you recover when you move between the mob you just killed and the one you'll kill next.

Oh BTW, level 35 is not half way through cruel, it's probably very close to Dominus normal.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

I'm not hiding behind the elitist card, it's the truth, because you have put up with countless hours of farming to be able to enjoy the game you want that everyone else is put through the same horrible experience as you or maybe you just don't want your items to lose some market value in the form that 5L and 6L wouldn't be valued at pornographic prices.

You have funny way to make your own assumptions and just call the truth just because... If I didn't have fun at any point of this game, I wouldn't have played it. I always play the new leagues because I actually like to start from 0 over and over. And no, I wish no horrible experiences to anyone anywhere doing anything. Also, 5L and budget 6Ls are already pisscheap, obtainable in few hours of gameplay if you know what you're doing.

And that's where I said you do make a valid point. There's too much stuff in PoE currently that you just need to know to do well. And where do you get the knowledge? 3rd party websites. There's too much stuff in the shadows for new players and you very much described this in your original post and I agree with it 100%.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

People reach level 95 in a week. Well yeah, there are people who say they reach level 60 in a day. Does that reflects the majority of people? No. Especially when we take newbies in reguard we are talking about builds that will not even go past normal, a few times and then try and copy one from the foruns which will fail the moment they need a 5L or a 6L.

These people aren't even likely to get any character to cruel and if they do they don't really go much further than that.

Tabula rasa again is a bad item, it's a test item. It doesn't has base defense. Even then you don't get it for anything less than an exalt, it's not by any means cheap, it's not something you buy with a couple chaos given how bad a base item it is.

The vast majority of 5Ls do not go for at least 1 exalt. Good 5Ls go in exalts (Carcass Jacks, Coils are 2-3 exas and they are very good chest pieces). Again look up in poe.xyz or poe.trade to verify this yourself. There. Several hours? Took me 2 minutes, max. Problem is that it's again 3rd party website. Even I am selling quite a few decent 5Ls for 1 gcp each.

Also, Tabula Rasa is not a bad item, offers you a 6L at the cost of stats on your chest which you can make up in other gear pieces. And yes, it sells for 10-15c in new hardcore leagues during first week usually.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

About whether this very real problem is going to change anytime soon or not. I cannot say, odds are it isn't, and it isn't exactly because all the people who felt this problem just found it easier to give up on the game rather than coming to the foruns and tell the developers this is why they are quiting and that it needs changing. However it doesn't changes the fact that many peple quit over this and that this needs changing and I at least am doing what I can to bring the DEVs head around to this problem.

The developers have made a conscious decision not to cater for people who quit due to such stuff. Like Chris said in the recent podcast, if they'd reduce the "skill" or grind requirement on the beginning, these players who can't overcome it now would just hit the wall later on with maps or something similar and eventually they'd have to dumb down the whole game for them if they wanted to keep them playing. It's not going to change anytime soon, it's not an accident it is the way it is. It's intended.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

As for any build that cannot be done with budget build aside CoC. Simple, any build that requires 5L or more already isn't a budget build. It's an expensive build. You'll need at least a 5L around level 35 to 40 and then at least another 5L (preferably 6 but we'll asume it's one that works on 5L for the sake of it) around level 50 with higher base defense. This will be useful again for some levels until the defense values become too low for the content you're doing and around level 65 to 69 you'll need a last piece of armor although at 50+ I'll go as far as saying that you're finally earning enough to buy one of those armour without completly depleting your orbs and only if they are sold very cheap when compared to the prices you're asked.

4L are 20% of the content tops. Probably less. 6L as a requirement are something like 10 to 15% of the content best. 5L required is the majority of the builds. But again, required is the keyword here because while yes, most builds only require 5L, the point where they shine is at 6L which adds the extra bit of DPS to make them clear really fast as they are supposed to.

Most builds that merely require a random 5L can be done with under 1 exalt. These are extremely budget builds. Builds that require a specific 5L can be most done under 3-5 exalts. These are semi budget builds. And yet again, you don't NEED a 6L. All my characters are working builds, clearing normal Atziri and high level maps and two (2) of them have a 6L.

If you require 5L for a build:
It took me literally 3 days to farm 75 fusings, from selling rares for alts and buying jewelers and fusing from masters and from selling ocassional 6S. And i only play couple hours a day.

5L from vorici cost 150 fusings. I'll have that in next 3 days. It's way easier now than it was before. You should be very happy you fused 5S into 5L with only 30 orbs.

But please tell me what build requires 5L at lev 35? I was happy to have 4L at this level. You going for cast on crit? Nothing else comes to mind, and that only works when you at least level 70 with heavy tree investment.

Edit: 4L is enough for atziri, with a bloody lifesprig: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdt7d2iIXgc

"

CharanJaydemyr wrote:

Spoiler

"

SteveZ wrote:

if u cant clear merciless with a 4L then ur bad at the game. mathil tornado shot clears 75 maps with a 4L.

No, it just means you don't want to do what others are doing. I completely see the OP's point and have discussed it with the devs on several occasions. 4L is indeed sufficient for those who are happy to use certain skills, but all that means is that 5-6L are considered a 'luxury' by those people and a 'necessity' by others who want to do things their own way -- which they should be able to, within reason, given it's supposed to be all about 'build diversity'.

The basic problem with the current system is it essentially MUST be tuned for min/maxers who can squeeze a lot of power out of 4L and turn into fucking faceroll gods with 5-6L. Meanwhile, those who would push the creative limits of the 5L-6L are stuck with 4L because the main means to acquire a 5-6L is to either create a boring farming build, trade aggressively or get very lucky.

This game is FULL of build diversity potential, but is for the most part unable to achieve that potential because it's not tuned for those who'd realise that diversity.

ARPGs typically have enough RNG from item-mod based rolls. Adding an extra layer that actually dictates which skills you can use and to what extent was a mistake on GGG's behalf, but it's a fundamental element to this game and you work around it...because, as ever, it's one of those things you put up with because the game itself is still better than its shortcomings.

Just to contextualise how stupid this system is, imagine reaching level 30 in Diablo 2 but being unable to use level 30 requirement skills. Now and then you get to roll a virtual dice to see if you can enable it or not (simulating RNG drops), and even if you do, you may have to take a hit in your stats (because in PoE sometimes you have to sacrifice good gear to get the sockets/links you need).

I'm sure it looked good on paper and it certainly seemed like a brilliant idea when I first encountered in during Closed Beta (mainly because D3 had dumped a similar, but far more streamlined, system), but before long the problematic nature of tying skill potential to gear made itself clear.

Charan is a complex character, and easy to disagree with at times - but then sometimes he just nails it.
fucking nails it.

+ 2^64

Clearspeed differences aren't like 10%. They are probably more around 300%, especially in linear maps and open areas. And even more if their gear/build sucks.
Quicksilver 100% up while shooting every few seconds in maps like Gorge. You clear the map in no-time. Only the movespeed is limiting you if you manage to get a 'god-build'. You can sometimes clear it so fast that some party members can't even keep up even if they don't attack anything at all lol. The difference is massive.


Also we will probably never agree on the defensive values. I don't care about no chest-piece and never really did because this game (except for hardcore) does not reward you for not dying and the xp penalty is too low. But it does reward you for leveling fast and for clearing fast.
So what, a lvl35 body armor with 20q gives roughly 250 armor? Who cares if a granite gives 3000 (+80%) and Grace another 500-1000. Screw that chest piece armor.. Take 2 granite if you have too. Only newbies care about it imo. But they shouldn't.
Buy a white 5L for 1C, chrome it and voila you can level (imo 3L/4L is enough but okay). But a Tabula is easier if you can afford it.

If you care about like 250 armor which only adds like 3% damage reduction on top of the flask+aura then you too look at the wrong stats regarding items imo.


Also I learn faster in League of Legends playing vs diamond player compared to play vs silver/gold. MUCH faster in fact. But only after I have a certain abount of 'base-knowledge' about the game. So I agree that complete newbies (their first 10 hours of gameplay so to say) indeed won't learn anything from dying. But a slightly more experienced newbie should imo.


Diablo 3 is just too simple on all fronts. It targets a different audience anyway imo.

"

Elhazzared wrote:

...The vast majority quit this game because they cannot get their 5L nor 6L...

I think this statement over simplifies the potential reasons for players quitting in reaction to bad socket crafting experiences. Is it simply the fact that they did not attain their goal that makes them quit? Or is it the many months they spent collecting currency just to spend it all in 5 minutes for no gain and maybe a loss? A serious time investment and test of patience crescendoed with a 5 minute click-spam for no gain. All that time. All that time spent NOT DOING ANY SOCKET CRAFTING. Being patient. Waiting until the stock pile was big enough. And then going for it, and failing. Is it the failure that frustrates most? Or is it the process? Collect for months, spend in minutes. Imo, it is the process.

Please consider which of the following scenarios would be more frustrating or discouraging to you:

1000 Orbs collected over 6 months, all spent in 5 minutes, for no gain
OR
1000 Orbs, spent 1 to 3 at a time, over the course of 6 months, for no gain.

Imo, the first scenario magnifies your loss. Your 6 month Orb collection got toasted before you could finish a single cup of tea, and you are no better and maybe worse for it. You patiently collected for 6 months just to be able to make this attempt, and in 5 minutes, it is all over.

The second scenario sort of abstracts the high cost of the process. Rather than spending a 6 month stock pile in 5 minutes, the Orbs are spent a little at a time, "on the fly", over time.

If you bought 1000 lottery tickets today and did not win anything significant..
If you bought 1000 lottery tickets, 1 per day for 1000 days, and did not win anything significant...
Which feels worse?

In PoE, socket crafting simply cannot be done "on the fly", at least not on gear that you are wearing. The socket crafting realities force us to hoard/collect, unless we want to break our gear "on the fly"; that is always an option I guess. There is so little flexibility with socket crafting that the only option is to 1) hoard/collect 2) Hail-Mary quick-burn. You hoard to yolo quick-burn or hoard for Vorici, but there are no FUN "on the fly" opportunities for socket crafting. It is always a waiting game. How successful do you think that a scratch-off lottery would be if there was a high chance of you losing more than the money you spent for the ticket (like your car, college degree, money you have in the bank, etc.)? Would you want to buy a lottery ticket if you knew that there was a high chance that you could lose money from your bank account in doing so? Do you think that people would take that gamble very often? Even if the jackpot was $10 billion, most people are not going to risk losing their car today on that gamble. The lottery is a safe way to gamble because it is low-risk; and that is part of what makes it FUN; it is safe. Socket crafting Orbs are not low-risk; they are not safe to use. They are high-risk damage-dealers that WILL do damage to your belongings. When you consume socket crafting Orbs you are taking on a high risk of value loss and a low risk of value gain. Do you see why socket crafting is generally no fun?

I think what frustrates me the most about socket crafting is the waiting game. I WANT to socket craft. I WANT to gamble. But the piece of shit Orbs are so high risk that I simply cannot do it. I just have to collect and wait, collect and wait, collect and wait, until one day I decide "fuck this, I am bored as fuck, yolo time". The process is shit, and I cannot fathom why it hasn't changed at all.

I hope someone gets something out if this wall of text..

Grughal, only the worst 5L go for less than an exalt. The ones with mixed defense. Even a white 5L of a single defense type tends to go for at least an exalt. You might get them at like 20 chaos on some people but you have to be extremely lucky and spend several hours looking both through the market channel and poe.xyz to try and get them at 4 to 5 chaos and even then it's expensive. I wasn't even talking about carcass jack or lightning coils, even white armor at 5L, so long as it's single defense type tends to go for 1 exalt+.

Tabula rasa is something I'll never agree to be good. I wouldn't give more than a chaos or two if I was really desperate for a 6L that would give me all white sockets. The lack of defense is just that bad!

Again you are overlooking the point. 5L and 6L easily available only means you can make whatever build you want, it doesn't makes the content any easier!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! People don't quit the game because the game is hard, people quit the game because they don't have the required links in their stuff to make the build work. I've explained this time and time again but it seems people cannot understand this very simple point. 6L doesn't makes the game easier, it merely allows for build diversity!

Most builds that require a 5L in all truth require at least 3 5L, one at level 35 to 40, one around 50 with better defense and one around 65 to 69 with a better yet defense. You may say that defense is not necessary, I disagree, lack of defense is what gets me killed. Even desyncs can be survived with level appropriate defense.

Gfurm - It took you 3 days of farming and at what levels exactly? I'm talking about newbies here who are still on normal difficulty and 5L for them is a lot, in fact, them having a vorici that can even make a 5l is probably still way off in the future.

As for what build requires a 5L at level 35, any build that uses quite a few support gems that don't increase DPS, for example the build I had made for block/dodge/evasion. That is blood magic + life leech + increased area + spell gem. That's a 4 L but tell me, what manner of DPS I do I have without even a single DPS support? None, at this point it's not viable, you need at least 1 to 2 DPS support gems to make any build viable... as I gave you a simple example, just any build you can think that uses several support gems to modify the spell rather than just increase DPS.

Silverdash - First point I'm going to make here is that the majority of newbies are solo players and yes I know solo play is penalised, it's yet another thing that bothers me but I can live with that. So when you play solo why do you care about racing to see who gets the kills to fill the flask? It's only your flask to fill after all... most build once they go to the end will have similar clear speeds, they work differently but they have the same clear speed. Meaning you kill the mobs with the same speed as any other build. Some builds have more movement speed than others and quite frankly, I do not care for flask movement, I don't want to be bothered to be clicking on the flask every X seconds, I'll just get some extra movement speed, i'm either solo or with a single friend and we don't really have to fight for kills. The killing speed is still about the same at the end, just archieved through different means... now yes, some builds are not really made to have high DPS, but that is not the point, in builds that are, some need 4L to archieve it, some need 5 and some need 6, but at the end of the day the clear speed is roughtly the same. But if you have a 5 and 6l always available, you are free to chose how you want to do it!

We will indeed never agree on the defense values. I have a 350 defense chest piece. That is base value cause it does have extra bonus on it. My boots are like 100 base. that's less than a third and you'll find the same being true for all equipment. All the othe 3 defensive pieces are worth less than the chest piece alone! And sure, you can your the flask or two or even 5 for all I care. I don't like having to be constantly using the flask everytime I see an enemy. I'd rather just have a smaller but permanent amount of armor that guarantees my safety at all times. You have a flask, sudenly you desync and you died because you weren't using the flask, if I desync that's all there is to it, I won't die easily to it. Having that flask handy is good for one thing only. If you are fighting a very hard hitting physical boss thenit has it's use, other than that, not really, not the way I play it. The less reliabillity I have to put on a flask to survive, the less likely I am to die. And you can say whatever you want about dying. I don't like to lose XP whether it's a lot or not. I don't like dying at all! Even in a standard league I like to play it as if it was hardcore. the only reason I don't play hardcore leagues is desyncs.

Diablo 3 may or may not be simple. I cannot call either because I have never played. Diablo 3 is expensive and even more if you are to add the expansion. But I do know it is also a hack and slash with grinding requirements and no hindering of the character development... Another thing I can say is that a 5L or 6L won't make PoE easier. It will merely allow for more build diversity.

Perfect Black, you have a point there as I've said many times. the process through which you obtain a 5L or 6L is incredibly bad. But I don't even think that's why players mstly leave. The vast majority of the players who quit this game probably didn't even reached a month of playing, they are just completly discouraged after not being able to get a 5L or 6L even when they finaly have a good build they copied from the boards. Again the simplest case was my friend who quit this game and it didn't even took him 2 weeks. He tried for a bit on his own, then i gave him a build to strive for and when he finally understood that he couldn't progress to 5L or 6L he gave up, the frustation of being unable to progress was not worth it. I don't know any other game that tries to frustate the player as much by stoping him this hard from progressing.