Israel does it's best to become the most hated nation in the world

Sorry, Poutsos. Let me make it clear again, and this time with a justification: I see no point in discussing this with someone who will not come away from the discussion unchanged regardless of the input and the exchange. That's not 'snobbery' -- that's just making sure I don't waste my time. Your agenda is a bright red flag and you're totally entitled to it.

My entire point was made in one post. It wasn't made to join what appears to be a lot of butting heads and horns, or to change anyone's mind. The fact that mine has been changed suffices.

Good luck with your crusade.

"

Moonyu wrote:

Charan, I read that NYT's article too. And your point is spot on. Each side is now in a perpetual retaliation for what the other side did last that was in retaliation for the previous one that was..., and so on and on.

But My original point stands, depending on which side you choose to side with, you will try to find justification for your position. I don't have a horse in this race and can stand back as an impartial observer.

The important thing, Moon, is that even if we don't have a horse in this race, it is our duty as intelligent, privileged (yeah, I said it) people to at least acknowledge it's happening and bear witness to it. And the media isn't making it easy at all, which is something else that must be taken into account.

There is of course major irony in me saying this on a game forum, especially one that bore so much of my attention and, sure, emotional/intellectual investment. Still, there it is. Never before have we had so many avenues for escapism and *almost* willful neglect of what really matters, of the world around us. This is why it's so essential that we make that effort.

And if the media sways you one way or the other, at least you can say you have a stance and that it is an informed one -- although the degree to which said information can be veritable is of course debatable.

There is no right or wrong here. Reaction, reaction. I cannot and will not choose sides; sufficient reasoning has been provided in this thread why. I can and will, however, be aware that it's happening. It has to suffice.

"

Poutsos wrote:

Ok you denounce Chonsky,but what about Howard Zinn? http://www.jewishjournal.com/bloggish/item/howard_zinn_israel_was_a_mistake_20100311

Or even Albert Einstein? http://www.rense.com/general59/ein.htm

The whole Jewish intelect,seemed to be more sympathetic to palestinians,rather than israel.Charan your snobbery is pretty high,but you know,if you view this as pure retaliation,i m sorry but you are completely clueless.And yeah,i do not have the slighest desire to discuss this with you,as you made clear a few pages before.Dalai's post was much more general muslim bash.If we are to play this game,and even assumer that Jews had every right to occupy the land,then I could just get down and start giving numbers of casualties from 1946 to now,but it is not worth it.

And for the last time,i am not fucking pro Hamas,i do not justidy their actions either.

Edit: Yeah,i was confused about Chomsky,he doesnt have a nobel,i was refering to the Chomsky–Schützenberger theorem,that i had mixed somehow in my mind.It makes sense,they d never give Chomsky a nobel prize.It would be like giving a nobel prize to Che Guevara(not that he wasnt worth of one,but thats a whole other discussion)

I'm not familiar with Zinn, but in hinsight, the general practice of victors carving up of vast areas into artificial nations has been disastrous in terms of peace. If you look at the map boundaries from the perspective that they were meant to keep the individual nations weak and at odds with their neighbors and within their own borders it begins to form a cohesive whole.

What I do find disturbing is that many people think that peace is some sort of low energy resting point and it will happen if we do nothing. Peace, like life, is something that must be constantly strived for. House don't build themselves, random clumps of carbon don't spontaneously become trees and the lion isn't naturally buddies with the zebra.

Peace is more than the lack of violence. It is a constant struggle of communication, compromise, understanding and acceptance.

"

DalaiLama wrote:

Peace is more than the lack of violence. It is a constant struggle of communication, compromise, understanding and acceptance.

Welcome back.

"

Charan wrote:

Sorry, Poutsos. Let me make it clear again, and this time with a justification: I see no point in discussing this with someone who will not come away from the discussion unchanged regardless of the input and the exchange. That's not 'snobbery' -- that's just making sure I don't waste my time. Your agenda is a bright red flag and you're totally entitled to it.

My entire point was made in one post. It wasn't made to join what appears to be a lot of butting heads and horns, or to change anyone's mind. The fact that mine has been changed suffices.

Good luck with your crusade.

I do not lead or take part in any "crusade".Since it's a forum,we are here to discuss,and i have not seen anyone with different opinion changing his mind watsovever either.However this issue has been on my radar for the last 8 years,and i could make much longer posts,if english was fluent enough,which unfortunately(or fortunately)is not.
I have changed my mind countless times on discussions,mostly in person of course,but when i post articles by chomsky,zinn,hobsbawm and einestein-purposefully all jews-,and i get responses that stay on the basic CCN/BBC view,or your vew for being a conflict based on action-reaction(or reaction-reaction whatever),ignoring to dig into the deep political reasons for it,i see no reason whatsoever to change my mind.When i get serious articles,from serious well respected academics or analysts,i might as well reconsider.

And for Fuck's shake,if Israel does not intend to harm civilians,why in 2009 they blocked the humanitarian aid that was being sent fromm Greece to civilians there?Dalai has not asnwered me in that one.It was a neutral-non goverment-aid,towards wounded civilians.

"

Charan wrote:

You know I'm not going to read all that, DalaiLama. I take it as you getting a load of shit off your chest, nothing more. Because you have to ask yourself, when you do 'longer' posts -- is every word worth it?

You know the answer to this as well as I regarding your Hadrian of Text.

It's still all retaliation. And has been for a very long time.

Just this once, you've failed your chosen username. I'm sorry.

I didn't intend for you to read all that. Your post was just an opening point for other comments on the thread and topic in general, but I did want to reply to the point you made in your post.

When you say "It's still all retaliation" Do you mean Israel's actions are retaliatory? I wouldn't disagree that retaliation is a large part of their motive. I would disagree that retaliation is the critical factor in deciding what and who to hit.

If you thought the whole post was aimed towards your comment, than I apologize. That wasn't my intent at all. I just wanted to include enough information for lurkers to see that there is definitely a bad guy in this horrible situation. If I had just included 3 or 4 elements, then it would be a back and forth game of questioning the source.

It's like the second law of thermodynamics. There is no scientific underpinning saying why the law must work, but it has been observed to be true so often that it is considered a law.

Israel can definitely be brutal, and has the potential to abuse the power they have. The US administration has distanced itself from Israel, so they don't have the friendly influence that they really should. Most of the distancing has to do with perspectives that are guided by competing ideologies rather than information. So, part of the carnage the world is witnessing could have been avoided if the current US administration had paid attention to what was going on instead of just assuming Israel was an unrepentant bully.

Ignorance has a very high cost when you get to higher levels of power.

So how is someone who doesn't have access to raw information supposed to judge what is going on and who is lying and who is telling the truth. It is difficult for a casual observer to be able to be able to discern what is really happening. Unfortunately, some propaganda is well crafted and can only be ferreted out much later after the fact. This is a significant enough event that many news agencies will be caught lying after the fact, if people pay attention to what they are saying.

Once you start tracking which agencies will lie or bend the truth, it becomes easier to judge current events. People don't need to jot down every detail, but if they remember the gist of what various agencies and commentators were saying, then ten, twenty and thirty years later they will be able to spot some of these liars instantly.

If you have access to a good library, I would suggest starting with some reading of Foreign Affairs magazine in the late 70's. Read a few articles, then a compare them with articles on similar topics from the 80's and 90's on so on. Now contrast the writer's predictions and commentary with what actually happened.

Some of the writers were or are participants in these major global events. They aren't pyschic, but you will see that some of them have very good insights, and you will be better equipped to sort the wheat from the chaff of world events such as the current battle between Israel and Palestine.

You appear to be precisely one post behind me. Read my latest to MoonYu, as it pre-empts most of what you've said here, although not directly.

As for the word 'retaliation', once it becomes your watchword, you are not only authorised to match the enemy's atrocities, you are virtually obliged to one-up them.

"

InexRising wrote:

"

DalaiLama wrote:

Do elementary schools in your area of the world have 20 hidden rocket launchers? If they do, the principle is much stricter than any I have ever known.

More hypocrisy.

http://palsolidarity.org/2014/07/israeli-military-falsifies-photograph-to-justify-bombing-el-wafa-hospital/

I find it odd that I can't find a single major news organization reporting on that, despite over 1600 hits on Google. It may because it is relatively recent, but I will reserve judgement on it for a few days.

In contrast, here are some more rockets found at a school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=u57yxd753f8

Here we have some terrorists using civilian homes to fire at Israeli forces:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rfbjO2WznEk

And here we have some terrorists using an ambulance to escape:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7O114V9PdmM

And lastly (for the moment, there are plenty more) we have the following from the Washington Post:

"During the lull, a group of men at a mosque in northern Gaza said they had returned to clean up the green glass from windows shattered in the previous day’s bombardment. But they could be seen moving small rockets into the mosque."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/gaza-residents-scramble-to-make-most-of-five-hour-truce/2014/07/17/e5485fce-0d7e-11e4-8341-b8072b1e7348_story.html

"

Poutsos wrote:

And for Fuck's shake,if Israel does not intend to harm civilians,why in 2009 they blocked the humanitarian aid that was being sent fromm Greece to civilians there?Dalai has not asnwered me in that one.It was a neutral-non goverment-aid,towards wounded civilians.

It is certainly true that a lot of legitimate aid has been blocked during the attempt to keep weapons from getting through.

There is a lot of misery and suffering in Gaza, and this misery allows Hamas to recruit even more terrorists.

IIRC (it's been a few years since that incident) the shipments from Greece were suspicious and they didn't want to let Israel inspect them. I'll have to check on that though, I could be thinking of a different instance of aid blocking.

*IF* and I do hope someday this can be arranged, the surrounding forces can stop using violence against Israel, they can start using the court system to get their land back. Israel has seized and built on a lot of land that they don't legitimately own, and this has been a huge factor in the underlying resentment for well over 30 years.

The Six Day War and all the subsequent attacks gave Israel all the excuse they needed to take more land as a defensive buffer. I don't blame them for wanting a safe zone, but eventually they will have to give that land back.

As much as I detest all the flagrantly bad lawsuits we have in the US, I would vastly prefer to see the rest of the world adopt this non-violent method of combat.

I don't think any stable governments have enough influence with Hamas (or Hezbollah) to get them to stand down and accept inspections, weapons removal and arrests of the attackers.

I think that would be the only alternative Israel would be willing to accept.

For those who don't follow such things closely, all that firepower isn't cheap and it isn't easily replenished. Humanitarian aspects aside, Israel doesn't want to be in this any longer than they have to.

The people in Palestine shouldn't have to resort to rockets for diplomacy. Hamas has failed them. They need to throw them out - Hmm, wasn't their last national election in 2009 or such?) and choose a more diplomatic government.

The area really doesn't have much in the way of resources, and would need serious help to get an economy going. If the Palestine people were willing to choose peace, I would be almost certain that the US and Saudi Arabia would be willing to come up with a custom Marshall Plan.

If they don't there's a decent chance ISIS will get ahold of them.

"

Charan wrote:

You appear to be precisely one post behind me. Read my latest to MoonYu, as it pre-empts most of what you've said here, although not directly.

As for the word 'retaliation', once it becomes your watchword, you are not only authorised to match the enemy's atrocities, you are virtually obliged to one-up them.

Absolutely. One of the reasons the cold war never went hot (there were some seriously close moments that few know about) was that both sides had leaders who experienced the horrors of war first hand. Some of the current catastrophe is directly related to the Soviet vs US struggle (Domino Theory) and how both superpowers used Aghanistan as their proxy.

Whether its an arms race or an eye for an eye back and forth, the potential for enormous disaster rapidly escalates and any sense of restraint or vestiges of human decency go flying out the window.

OK - back to playing PoE.

No bad phone calls so far.