Israel does it's best to become the most hated nation in the world

Too late for the civil discussion, am I?

If anybody would take my word as being somewhat objective, I can claim I'm seriously left-wing and anti-war, and I'm also in Israel. As a Physical Therapist, and serving on the border, I have *seen* some of this firsthand. It's really not a fight of good vs. evil, but it's also not a fight of bad vs. bad.
Israel has done plenty of wrong itself, but whatever could be avoided, was, and civilian casualties are FAR lower than they could be if they didn't care about it. Meanwhile, I've so far treated Palestinian kids who have seen their parents shot for daring to refuse to place rockets in their living room, all of this in an army-run field-hospital on the border we opened for Palestinian wounded.

The Palestinians are *not* our enemy, and we have been talking with their peaceful members for years now, and are slowly working towards a more stable and mutually beneficial solution. Hamas, however, is an enemy to both the Palestinian people, and to us. Let me make this clear - outside of a small minority that mostly shouts out it's anger and can't really do anything, none of us, none, accept the people as our enemy. The two-state solution is, and always will be, our goal.

I guess simple stories that repeat the "same-old" idea are easier to sell, but I still can't get over a 10-year-old kid with a live grenade running towards a soldier. Said soldier was too shocked to stop him, so the kid is now dead, and the soldier is missing an a finger. Just this week, the PLO and Egypt have both stopped 3 rocket and/or suicide bomber attacks aimed against us.

I repeat, we are not in war with Palestine. We (Sane Arab world, Israel) are at war with Hamas, and it's holding the Palestinian people hostage.

Thanks for that, CantripN.

Too late indeed.

It was uncivil as soon as OP put that shitty title up.

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Nightmare90 wrote:

Too late indeed.

It was uncivil as soon as OP put that shitty title up.

Bullshit. If this can overcome its shitty title, so can and so did this thread. No, it went to shit when certain people came in and tried to be funny.

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Charan wrote:

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Nightmare90 wrote:

Too late indeed.

It was uncivil as soon as OP put that shitty title up.

Bullshit. If this can overcome its shitty title, so can and so did this thread. No, it went to shit when certain people came in and tried to be funny.

I don't neglect my part in letting the thread turn a shit direction however I did not drive it further along. The one who put up the title continuously drives it in the same direction the title implies already.

I believe some things are not worth it to invest yourself into at all cost, because it drives into a negative balance in the end. This thread produced enough negativity and hate in Off Topic already thanks to those "some individuals", leading to nasty statements from all sides. I'd rather not have it continue.

What we have here is individuals discussing matters they are not involved into, in a manner which indicates clearly that they are indeed not. Nothing of value will be produced by this unless you are a utility monster.

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CantripN wrote:

Too late for the civil discussion, am I?

If anybody would take my word as being somewhat objective, I can claim I'm seriously left-wing and anti-war, and I'm also in Israel. As a Physical Therapist, and serving on the border, I have *seen* some of this firsthand. It's really not a fight of good vs. evil, but it's also not a fight of bad vs. bad.
Israel has done plenty of wrong itself, but whatever could be avoided, was, and civilian casualties are FAR lower than they could be if they didn't care about it. Meanwhile, I've so far treated Palestinian kids who have seen their parents shot for daring to refuse to place rockets in their living room, all of this in an army-run field-hospital on the border we opened for Palestinian wounded.

The Palestinians are *not* our enemy, and we have been talking with their peaceful members for years now, and are slowly working towards a more stable and mutually beneficial solution. Hamas, however, is an enemy to both the Palestinian people, and to us. Let me make this clear - outside of a small minority that mostly shouts out it's anger and can't really do anything, none of us, none, accept the people as our enemy. The two-state solution is, and always will be, our goal.

I guess simple stories that repeat the "same-old" idea are easier to sell, but I still can't get over a 10-year-old kid with a live grenade running towards a soldier. Said soldier was too shocked to stop him, so the kid is now dead, and the soldier is missing an a finger. Just this week, the PLO and Egypt have both stopped 3 rocket and/or suicide bomber attacks aimed against us.

I repeat, we are not in war with Palestine. We (Sane Arab world, Israel) are at war with Hamas, and it's holding the Palestinian people hostage.

Thanks,i appreciate this post.I will start by saying that i have nothing against Israeli people,neither Jews.Some of the best intellectuals and artists in history were Jew.I can't even start to name them,from Horowitz to Assad brothers etc.
The thing that has been disputed though,from all the left wing in the world,is the fury with israelian army has always counter attacked,including the 14000 casualties in Lebanon war,and if indeed "whatever could be avoid was".Why has Israel continiously has denied foreign medical and humanitarian supplies to Palestine?(this is not to be disputed,if you do not know about it,it's propably cause your media does not let it get through)).Hamas sure started,and mainly acts as a terrorist organisation,but the quetion that rises is,what have led to it's creation,and to some extent support of Palestinian people?Thing is,without some military(paramilitary) action,could Palestine ever reclaim some regions,or some poltical benefits?Cause in every conflict or negotiation for the last 60 years,always seems to lose,both politically and in human loses.And is really a two state solution the right thing?I mean it really has not worked in Cyprus so far.

Also another thing to quetion is the involvement of USA,and it's continious support towards Israel.Alot of people have argued,but i do not know if we are now entering the conspiracy theory territory,that the so called "attrocities" of Israelian army,have been directed by the USA,in it's cause to gain control over the middle east,something that USA has been trying to achieve during the last 50 years(iraq invasion etc.).And i am sorry if i am being skeptic towards the idea of -bombing a hospital cause missiles are hidden there- cause that has been historically USA's excuse for bombings.How may times we heard-Sadam has been developing nuclear missiles,we have to take action-in order to be proved later that there were no nuclear weapons whatsoever,and it was nothing more than US gaining control of the area.

So yeah,the title is misleading,i did not actually mean that,it was a moment of frustration.The most hated nation in the rest of the world over the past century has of course been USA-again of course with no blame to the people there-except the fact that they usually let themselvs be brainwashed by the media.

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Poutsos wrote:

The thing that has been disputed though,from all the left wing in the world,is the fury with israelian army has always counter attacked,including the 14000 casualties in Lebanon war,and if indeed "whatever could be avoid was".Why has Israel continiously has denied foreign medical and humanitarian supplies to Palestine?(this is not to be disputed,if you do not know about it,it's propably cause your media does not let it get through)).Hamas sure started,and mainly acts as a terrorist organisation,but the quetion that rises is,what have led to it's creation,and to some extent support of Palestinian people?Thing is,without some military(paramilitary) action,could Palestine ever reclaim some regions,or some poltical benefits?Cause in every conflict or negotiation for the last 60 years,always seems to lose,both politically and in human loses.And is really a two state solution the right thing?I mean it really has not worked in Cyprus so far.

I can give you my opinions, and I can give you media coverage. You'd be surprised, but our media is actually considered mostly left-wing and generally unbiased. They get flak for giving both sides a say, on national news.

Anyhow, I'll address your points, at least the ones I'm well versed with.
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"Why has Israel continiously has denied foreign medical and humanitarian supplies to Palestine?"

True, but. Yes, several such have been stopped. However, most have been let through, given they were willing to be checked and went through proper channels. The ones that were stopped, such as the Marmara (media fiasco that it was), were being used more for media-coverage and inflaming the situation than genuine help. I've personally been there to attest a good deal does get in, given it's genuinely for aid. On several occasions, "aid" was a cover to smuggle weapons. That being said, on some cases, under pressure from right-wing officials, this has been used as a pressure-method (an action I personally oppose strongly, and is thankfully rare).

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Why does Hamas exist? Long story. Amusingly enough, at some point in time, in an effort to get an alternative to the then-offensive actions of the PLO, Israel itself chose to support indirectly the then-charitable organization of the Muslim Brothers. This evolved into a political force, eventually routing the PLO and becoming the Hamas we all know and love. If this reminds you of a part of US history, it's no surprise...

I won't discount the continuation of the situation on the ground, and this sort of thing wouldn't exist (not nearly as much) if we had a lasting peace. A peaceful setting would be beneficial, and wouldn't allow violent action the self-righteous-cover. But, I repeat, the way things are, none of the actions of Hamas are truly for the benefit of the people (unless you believe in a non-peaceful solution, I guess).

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I won't deny that military action has a place in a resistance movement, historically speaking, but there's a rather clear line between that and terror. Killing soldiers is generally accepted (if not liked), shooting rockets on towns, not so much. Before you say Israel bombs towns, look into that a bit more - only time that happens is when "someone" places rockets in said towns, or uses a Hospital or a School as a Hamas HQ (actions that are in violation of rules-of-war, and make said places valid targets by any standard, if uncomfortable ones).
Regardless, the PLO has long-since abandoned the violent resistance, and is getting much better results for it, I assure you. Violence only serves to perpetuate violence, in this case.

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If you're not for a two-state solution, there's really only a few other options to get a one-state solution. None of those are acceptable to any side, really (except Hamas, and like-minded people on the other side). Tensions and cultural differences are such that a one-state solution isn't truly viable, and genocide on any end isn't a true option.

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As for U.S involvement, well, that would be conspiracy level thinking. We take their money gladly, but it doesn't actually come with (strong) strings attached. Mission directives aren't politically guided beyond the general framework (but are still approved case-by-case on complex cases like said Hospital). Many, many, attacks have been halted due to risk to civilian casualties (but mistakes still happen, Human Error being a factor).
Due to the media coverage, proof is obtained and kept before any such actions are taken, and it's available and provided to those that want it (so as not to repeat Iraq level mistakes).

Fair enough,however there are still 2 quetions left unanswered.I surely do not support violence,but the thing is,can Palestine ever claim lost territories or political benefits,given the current situation,and the west's stance on the matter.I think we both know that the answer is no.Also will military action help?The answer is again no.Palestine has no chance in open warfare against Israel-the best train army in the world.SO that leaves Palestine trapped,and only to surrender and accept whatever terms will be to Israel's best interests.

Second,you distinguishing terror to "legilimate" military action,but historically,all things considered,the civilian casualties of Palestines have been around 75% of the total casualties,on the already far higher number of death on their side.So i can be skeptic on blaming this on basic -humman errors-,mainly because numbers talk.I will post a snippet from one of Howards Zinn's last interviews-the great Jew historian,who among other things wrote the exceptional "A people's history of the United States":

As always in very complicated issues where emotions come to the fore quickly, I try to first acknowledge the other party’s feelings. In the case of Israel I try to say, yes, I understand your sympathy for a Jewish state, and I understand that you become angry when rockets fall [in Sderot] or when a suicide bomber takes needless life. But that has to be seen in proportion. I try to appeal to the experience of Jews, the experience of the Holocaust, by saying, if it’s never again, it’s not just never again for Jews, it’s never again for anybody. I also try to present facts that are hard to put aside. Rockets from Gaza killed three Israelis; Israelis retaliated with an enormous bombardment that killed 1,000 people. You can’t simply write that off or say, well, they’re morally equivalent or it was bad on both sides. Or the Lebanese send rockets into Israel, killing a number of people, and the Israelis invade Lebanon in 1982 and there are 14,000 civilian casualties. These are horrors inflicted by a Jewish state. As a Jew I feel ashamed when I read these things…I [also] try to appeal to what I think are the best legacies of the Jewish people—people like Albert Einstein and Martin Buber, who cannot be simply written off, because they’re Jewish heroes. And these are people who were critical of Israel and sympathetic to Palestinians.

SO that was my point,despite trying to distinguish terrorism,and noone argues that Hamas has done mmosntrous things,the actual facts and numbers are what we are left in the end.Also you have to quetion the first and foremost fact that lead to the situation in the first place,which can be traced back to 1946.


Lastly,regading US involvement,even though i agree that this can flirt with the conspiracy theory,but a superpower does not support finanancially,if it does not have something gain-something that outweights the actual money that it gives.We all know that US motifs have never been to bring world peace.

The reason for the large number of casualties, civilians included, is mostly them not having bomb shelters, being forced by Hamas to stay and take the fire to protect the missiles and get better news coverage, and the sad fact Gaza is a seriously cramped place.
I assure you the numbers could be far worse, going as far as genuine genocide, if anybody on this end was inclined (which we are not). Civilian casualties in war-zones are a sad fact of life, not something that can be easily avoided, and is minimized where and when possible by the military. No pleasure is taken in those deaths, and when you put families into a situation where they live inside a terror-cell, you have to wonder why that is, and who stands to benefit (certainly not Israel).

Cynically speaking, think of it this way: the more civilian casualties the Palestinians sustain, the sooner must we stop the operation, the less damage the Hamas takes, the more the terror threat remains. We have *every* interest to prevent this collateral damage. Deaths of this sort serve the Hamas and other extremists (of any sort) only.

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As for can Palestine get what it needs/wants? Most assuredly yes, given time. There are far greater forces at work here pushing this ahead, than violence. The business ties we have and could have with the Arab states are a good enough reason in and of itself.
Not to mention there are more than enough people on this end (and hopefully on the other end) that want peace and prosperity for it's own sake.