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LostForm wrote:
John is precisely asking for game breaking drops on a set schedule, it isnt one an hour, it is one a palace map completion, which in turn actually works out to way more than one an hour. Thus why i chose to respond the way I did about him. Play the game that is and aim your suggestions to move the game along in it's current vein. He is basically demanding a whole different game, and being an ass about it for several years now.
so wait, let me understand this:
if I'm asking good rewards (or simply "worthwhile" rewards) for beating crazy content rather than running from it (i.e skip boss in a map. or escape from a fight with an Invader, Exile or some doomsday-modded rare), and actually being able to access content based on your own skill rather than RNG randomly rolling 7 to drop you your Palace Map or Midnight Fragment - while not even touching existing content (well, maybe tweaking in some AI instead of one-shot gear-checks) - that's asking for a different game?
man are you listening to yourself?
seriously.
and keep in mind some of the things I'm asking for already are in the game.
but they are too few and far between. they are exceptions to the overall design, which is all-out random, so you can "hardcore" trade or fucking RMT to bypass that.
some of the straw arguments that annoy me the most, is acting like there's no alternative. no existing models GGG can happily adopt and learn from.
like the entire Action Role-play genre has been around for precisely Path Of Exile's age.
going all "boolean" and saying "you either want a reward per minute, or are just fucking hardcore like me, and really fucking enjoy not being able to progress based on your own skill and prowess. dice, or GTFO".
Trolling Manual says, now is the point where you say "game is fine"/"working as intended" and link a Legacy Shav.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun Last edited by johnKeys#6083 on May 12, 2014, 4:19:38 PM
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Posted byjohnKeys#6083on May 12, 2014, 4:04:00 PM
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LostForm wrote:
if you get to level 95, you have gotten good drops
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
i laughed
again, to emphasize, you can quite easily level to 95 and get pretty much jack shit for drops.
if you don't believe me, try it some time
in summary, sorry, you're wrong. i'm 94 ambush. so i'd only have 1 more level to go to find a good drop. not going to happen man
Last edited by Veruski#5480 on May 12, 2014, 4:23:02 PM
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Posted byVeruski#5480on May 12, 2014, 4:20:39 PM
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johnKeys wrote:
going all "boolean" and saying "you either want a reward per minute, or are just fucking hardcore like me, and really fucking enjoy not being able to progress based on your own skill and prowess. dice, or GTFO".
i am saying that you are struggling based on your own skill and prowess. It is like saying there is no such thing as being good at poker, due to the hands being random every deal. You got to know when to hold them and when to fold them.
It is perfectly ok for the game to spawn in a boss or monsters you really just dont want to mess with at the time. That is ok. And it does show your prowess and skill to recognize it for what it is, and fold that hand. Precisely because of the RNG involved in having that map at all, beating that boss you have folded to previously is in itself a reward. But that reward isnt good enough for you. Even the random loot it can drop isnt good enough for you. It must be a game breaking drop.
The fact that you look only at the extrinsic rewards show me already you have no interest in playing the game GGG designed. Enjoy the game that is there, which heavily features re-rolling new characters. You are in here challenging me to a contest 'to see who can make the best character' while not playing in the officially sanctioned contests 'to make the best character'. You are screaming from the roof tops about how bad the game is, and you only play a very small portion of the game.
let me put it to you in a way that maybe you will understand: The entire focus of the game is not 6 link shavronne's wrappings. There is much more to the game than that. I will fight for the focus to not slide any more towards "getting that 6 link shav's". You represent basically everything I hate about current video game trends, you are like personified power creep mixed with oversimplification. The game Must give this to you or it is broken. That is a problem, as you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Hey...is this thing on?
Last edited by LostForm#2813 on May 12, 2014, 4:26:15 PM
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Posted byLostForm#2813on May 12, 2014, 4:24:31 PM
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Veruski wrote:
"
LostForm wrote:
if you get to level 95, you have gotten good drops
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
i laughed
he's actually right in this statement.
the only way you can get to level 95 without chaining high maps and having the gear to survive their gear-checks, is by mindlessly grinding Act 3 Merciless areas again and again.
for thousands of hours.
until you end up in a mental institution.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
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Posted byjohnKeys#6083on May 12, 2014, 4:24:47 PM
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"
johnKeys wrote:
"
Veruski wrote:
"
LostForm wrote:
if you get to level 95, you have gotten good drops
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
i laughed
he's actually right in this statement.
the only way you can get to level 95 without chaining high maps and having the gear to survive their gear-checks, is by mindlessly grinding Act 3 Merciless areas again and again.
for thousands of hours.
until you end up in a mental institution.
i chained high maps. they are easy to get/cheap in ambush
he's not right.
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Posted byVeruski#5480on May 12, 2014, 4:25:40 PM
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"
ScrotieMcB wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen,
We're not here to indulge in reality but in hack-and-slash fantasy. ARPGs have become a second-rate genre. Its player retention and community management problems are at nightmare proportions. Now, in the days of Diablo 2 when ARPGs were a top gaming genre, there was a concept of build diversity. The Breath of the Dying Necromancers, the Widowmaker Sorcereress, the builds which built this great feeling of wonder, were made possible due to a community commitment to variety. Today, players have no stake in variety! All together, those of you complaining on the forums consider maybe three builds to be viable. And where do those of you with considerable in-game wealth invest it? Not in rogue builds, or at least not enough. You could benefit from diverse play. That's right, you, the Path of Exile player. And you are all being royally screwed over by these, these copycat wannabes, with their build envy, their 5L and 6L formulas, their droprate buffs and self-found leagues.
"
He took the name of SFL in vain! Burn the heretic!
Fellow players, QQers, these forums have 33 different suggestions for making it easier to acquire the same gear as HvC. Now, I have spent the last two months analyzing why you feel the need to build just like this guy, and I still can't figure it out. One thing I do know is that a lot of you feel stuck grinding for hours and hours, and I'll bet that half of the reason for that is that you're all trying to trade for the exact same gear. The new law of ARPG economies seems to be to crush diversity rather than foster it. Well, in my book you either have have a lot of possibilities, or you don't have enough of them. In the last seven builds that I've been involved with, I have handcrafted each of them without relying on any guide or streamer, have gotten to 87 with one of them, and enjoyed myself thoroughly. Thank you. Variety is not a destroyer of viability. It is a liberator of fun!
The point is, ladies and gentleman, that RNG, for lack of a better word, is good. RNG is right, RNG works. RNG clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of a broad spectrum of diverse possibilities. RNG, in all of its forms; RNG for gear, for "crafting," for monsters, for area generation has marked the upward surge of ARPG entertainment. And RNG, you mark my words, will not only save Path of Exile, but that other malfunctioning entity called ARPGs. Thank you very much. One more thing, which I couldn't fit into the Gordon Gekko speech pattern: everyone is pissed off at the coin flip right now. All you see is the choice between the one thing you want and the absence of it, the economy becomes a boring hierarchy of essentially the same affixes spiraling up with slightly better numbers, and your supposed solution to that problem is to put heads on both sides of the coin so it can no longer flip incorrectly. The answer isn't to limit the options in a binary pass/fail situation, but to increase the options so there are multiple different ways to pass. More viable builds, using a wider variety of different itemizations... and, as a result, less of a chance of getting any particular item you need, while a better chance of still getting a great item which someone needs. Free your mind from a monotone ladder of gear progression and embrace a plan for increased diversity... if Path of Exile has a problem, it's not too much RNG, but not enough meaningful RNG, meaning: a systematic conformity to a singular pattern of gear and Map evaluation.
1. prolly only 2 to 3% of actual player base uses these forums (google the ggg quote if you got that time).
2. max res, some mediocre block/eva/es etc. is enough to easily level to the 90s
3. any summoner just needs to level his gems and there you go end game.
4. still enjoyed your post! kinda too much energy for like... imho
5. dono if its necessary to read the QQ RNG threads anways, just a lack of math skills (1:40k is 1:40k).
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Posted byIMBAGOLLE#6204on May 12, 2014, 4:41:57 PM
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LostForm wrote:
i am saying that you are struggling based on your own skill and prowess. It is like saying there is no such thing as being good at poker, due to the hands being random every deal. You got to know when to hold them and when to fold them.
It is perfectly ok for the game to spawn in a boss or monsters you really just dont want to mess with at the time. That is ok. And it does show your prowess and skill to recognize it for what it is, and fold that hand. Precisely because of the RNG involved in having that map at all, beating that boss you have folded to previously is in itself a reward. But that reward isnt good enough for you. Even the random loot it can drop isnt good enough for you. It must be a game breaking drop.
The fact that you look only at the extrinsic rewards show me already you have no interest in playing the game GGG designed. Enjoy the game that is there, which heavily features re-rolling new characters. You are in here challenging me to a contest 'to see who can make the best character' while not playing in the officially sanctioned contests 'to make the best character'. You are screaming from the roof tops about how bad the game is, and you only play a very small portion of the game.
let me put it to you in a way that maybe you will understand: The entire focus of the game is not 6 link shavronne's wrappings. There is much more to the game than that. I will fight for the focus to not slide any more towards "getting that 6 link shav's". You represent basically everything I hate about current video game trends, you are like personified power creep mixed with oversimplification. The game Must give this to you or it is broken. That is a problem, as you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
that's a better post. much better than what you came into the thread with.
Poker has one key game mechanic. some say its most important one: the Bluff.
well you can't "bluff" a crazy boss/rare/Exile. you lack the gear = you die. usually in one shot or one burst of attacks.
there are very, very few cases in PoE where this isn't necessarily true.
that's why taking your chances and facing such an enemy, and winning despite the odds being completely stacked against you, is a feat of skill.
in aRPG, feats are rewarded. and the rewards serve dual purpose: a trophy for your achievement, and a means to prepare you for the next challenge.
when you aren't rewarded because the dice rolled against you, despite overcoming something nasty instead of cowering from it - that's a middle finger to the player in more ways than one.
when you are rewarded despite doing nothing noteworthy, that's also a middle finger to the player. read that again. very few understand this part.
another - even better - option, is to diminish the trophy (though still having the reward from killing "GMP Voidbearer of Ele Reflect, Proximity Shield, Life Regen doomsday" be greater than from flipping over a random rock), but make the enemy design based on skill. AI. interesting mechanics. learning. so the badly-geared aren't completely and utterly screwed just because they are badly-geared, while the uber-geared can't just close their eyes and face-roll, while occasionally AFKing to go take a piss in the middle of a boss fight.
and no content gated by randomness, for fuck's sake.
Median XL didn't prevent me from casually wandering into City Of Shadow at level 4, and getting instantly devoured by immortal zombies. that's a lesson learned.
I'm not "power creep personified" nor am I throwing any babies out with any water.
I'm an old fan of anything role-play, and dislike games that are designed to ultimately shove you into a corner no matter what you do.
a corner, where you are forced to do something completely unrelated to going out and killing monsters: trade. RMT. bro-deal. guild-stash. ask for favors.
the only missing ingredient, is P2W. GGG already have the framework ready should they ever choose to add that.
so why don't I hate PoE and quit? I can't. alongside the above bullshit design, GGG did many things right. most notably, the skill tree which allows me to do pretty much any crazy thing I can think of. few aRPGs did.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun Last edited by johnKeys#6083 on May 12, 2014, 5:14:46 PM
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Posted byjohnKeys#6083on May 12, 2014, 4:53:26 PM
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LostForm wrote:
I will fight for the focus to not slide any more towards "getting that 6 link shav's".
Nobody cares what you think when your attitude is this simplistic. Literally nobody.
So in terms of "fighting for it" you might as well fight shadows or sock puppets, because it would be about as effective.
"
LostForm wrote:
You represent basically everything I hate about current video game trends, you are like personified power creep mixed with oversimplification.
I see you this way.
You would take a good game and turn it to shit if you could, and make it unplayable.
You would design a loot game that doesn't give you any loot. Ew. Maybe a game marketed as a racing game where the main focus is actually trading for better tires with other players.
"
LostForm wrote:
The game Must give this to you or it is broken.
It doesn't have to give you any particular thing, but in a game about exploring builds and different combinations of items in different configurations, it should be something any reasonable player has the power to do.
If you don't have the power to do that freely, it means you aren't getting much in the way of drops, or the drops you do get either:
1) Don't have much economic sway
or
2) Don't have much functional use (eg, stack of chromes, or really a stack of nearly any orb except maybe eternals and mirrors...and def. regrets. regrets are useful)
it's pretty sad, really.
"having a good time creating new builds" has become
"sell all unused/old gear over the course of several days or up to a week, while spending that time or longer scouring the indexer looking for and negotiating the purchase of items you need"
yeah man, really pure, old school style dungeon crawler. so "pure" so "hardcore"
lol.......Kids these days.
Last edited by Veruski#5480 on May 12, 2014, 5:12:50 PM
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Posted byVeruski#5480on May 12, 2014, 5:03:32 PM
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"
LostForm wrote:
"
johnKeys wrote:
going all "boolean" and saying "you either want a reward per minute, or are just fucking hardcore like me, and really fucking enjoy not being able to progress based on your own skill and prowess. dice, or GTFO".
i am saying that you are struggling based on your own skill and prowess. It is like saying there is no such thing as being good at poker, due to the hands being random every deal. You got to know when to hold them and when to fold them.
It is perfectly ok for the game to spawn in a boss or monsters you really just dont want to mess with at the time. That is ok. And it does show your prowess and skill to recognize it for what it is, and fold that hand. Precisely because of the RNG involved in having that map at all, beating that boss you have folded to previously is in itself a reward. But that reward isnt good enough for you. Even the random loot it can drop isnt good enough for you. It must be a game breaking drop.
The fact that you look only at the extrinsic rewards show me already you have no interest in playing the game GGG designed. Enjoy the game that is there, which heavily features re-rolling new characters. You are in here challenging me to a contest 'to see who can make the best character' while not playing in the officially sanctioned contests 'to make the best character'. You are screaming from the roof tops about how bad the game is, and you only play a very small portion of the game.
let me put it to you in a way that maybe you will understand: The entire focus of the game is not 6 link shavronne's wrappings. There is much more to the game than that. I will fight for the focus to not slide any more towards "getting that 6 link shav's". You represent basically everything I hate about current video game trends, you are like personified power creep mixed with oversimplification. The game Must give this to you or it is broken. That is a problem, as you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
exactly. well said.
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Posted byIMBAGOLLE#6204on May 12, 2014, 5:05:14 PM
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"
johnKeys wrote:
"
LostForm wrote:
i am saying that you are struggling based on your own skill and prowess. It is like saying there is no such thing as being good at poker, due to the hands being random every deal. You got to know when to hold them and when to fold them.
It is perfectly ok for the game to spawn in a boss or monsters you really just dont want to mess with at the time. That is ok. And it does show your prowess and skill to recognize it for what it is, and fold that hand. Precisely because of the RNG involved in having that map at all, beating that boss you have folded to previously is in itself a reward. But that reward isnt good enough for you. Even the random loot it can drop isnt good enough for you. It must be a game breaking drop.
The fact that you look only at the extrinsic rewards show me already you have no interest in playing the game GGG designed. Enjoy the game that is there, which heavily features re-rolling new characters. You are in here challenging me to a contest 'to see who can make the best character' while not playing in the officially sanctioned contests 'to make the best character'. You are screaming from the roof tops about how bad the game is, and you only play a very small portion of the game.
let me put it to you in a way that maybe you will understand: The entire focus of the game is not 6 link shavronne's wrappings. There is much more to the game than that. I will fight for the focus to not slide any more towards "getting that 6 link shav's". You represent basically everything I hate about current video game trends, you are like personified power creep mixed with oversimplification. The game Must give this to you or it is broken. That is a problem, as you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
that's a better post. much better than what you came into the thread with.
Poker has one key game mechanic. some say its most important one: the Bluff.
well you can't "bluff" a crazy boss/rare/Exile. you lack the gear = you die. usually in one shot or one burst of attacks.
there are very, very few cases in PoE where this isn't necessarily true.
that's why taking your chances and facing such an enemy, and winning despite the odds being completely stacked against you, is a feat of skill.
in aRPG, feats are rewarded. and the rewards serve dual purpose: a trophy for your achievement, and a means to prepare you for the next challenge.
when you aren't rewarded because the dice rolled against you, despite overcoming something nasty instead of cowering from it - that's a middle finger to the player in more ways than one.
when you are rewarded despite doing nothing noteworthy, that's also a middle finger to the player. read that again. very few understand this part.
I'm not "power creep personified" nor am I throwing any babies out with any water.
I'm an old fan of anything role-play, and dislike games that are designed to ultimately shove you into a corner no matter what you do.
a corner, where you are forced to do something completely unrelated to going out and killing monsters: trade. RMT. bro-deal. guild-stash. ask for favors.
the only missing ingredient, is P2W. GGG already have the framework ready should they ever choose to add that.
so why don't I hate PoE and quit? I can't. alongside the above bullshit design, GGG did many things right. most notably, the skill tree which allows me to do pretty much any crazy thing I can think of. few aRPGs did.
you are right, chances are you will not be able to bluff the game. But there are poker tables where your bluffs will be called down no matter what, and the champs play through those tables as well, usually in a dominating fashion.
The trick is knowing when the game is bluffing or is holding a whopper.
Also, I am not talking to you from the lofty heights of exalt town, I am a meager player that loves the struggle. I enjoy moderately increasing my character strength, possibly adding a new map affix as 'doable'. I enjoy playing a multitude of styles, I have melee character, mages, archers, trap users, totem characters, CI, life regen iron will casters etc. I am here saying that the less you focus on the items you dont have and concentrate on how to use the items you do have, the more options for fun you have.
I like that the focus of the design of the game is not reaching lvl 100 and having the best of the best everything. It is a conscious decision to go for that goal, with everything in the game telling you that it wont be easy. Making the focus of the game be specifically that goal, especially by providing easier means to reach that goal, spits in the face of players that went for that goal and achieved it. It would be like letting players bring their stash into races because they dont feel it is right that players have to start from scratch each race.
Hey...is this thing on?
Last edited by LostForm#2813 on May 12, 2014, 5:20:07 PM
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Posted byLostForm#2813on May 12, 2014, 5:10:39 PM
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