RNG is good.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

Crackmonster wrote:

More than anything, it is lack of simplicity, transparency and accessibility that limits exploration of builds and the building of community knowledge.

This is like saying a city park is more explorable than a forest in the wilderness. The city park is simpler, more transparent, more accessible; this, without a doubt, makes it easier to know. However, knowing and exploring are different concepts. You say "this game is about farm 100-200+ hours of the same, non-endgame content, then try your luck at linking something or maybe buy some item. It's simply not particularly satisfying." How is it that you believe simpler would make it particularly satisfying? It wouldn't.

In terms of the three concepts you've mentioned, I believe the best design is to tier them smoothly towards an eventual end of high complexity, low accessibility, low transparency. I can definitely agree that the game should begin with low complexity, high accessibility, and high transparency to pull new players in and give them an opportunity to familiarize themselves with the mechanics — this is something which GGG realizes is a problem and addresses in the manifesto. However, by the time they reach endgame, things should no longer be a walk in the park, but instead a challenging survival mission in the wilderness. It's all about incremental challenge.

No, it is not the same as saying "a city park is more explorable than a forest in the wilderness". What i said was lack of simplicity, transparency and accessibility was an issue. That means i believe they are lacking such high degree that it becomes a problem. That is true for any intended complexity, it can be overcomplexified, meaning its a problem that its too complex for it's relative(true) level of end complexity, etc.

The problem with transparency is that things are not intuitive, you need to find out what counterintuitive invisible balance has been done to understand the game, that is one of the things that make poe inaccessible and adds to unneeded complexity of the playing experience.

"

Boem wrote:

is "because i like RNG" your answer? I could live with that, however shallow it would be.

Not so much. I mean, I do like RNG, we all do. But in terms of the answer thing, not really.

"

Boem wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

End-game isn't about achieving some form of gear near-perfection, it's about achieving some form of viability over the enemies which constitute the content

this sentence constitutes your opinion, and correct me if i am wrong, but that's not an "absolute" truth. Just like my opinion was not.
(unlike you sir, i will not ridicule it, rather say i disagree.

This is closer to my answer. Since you were able to deduce it yourself, it's a little strange you've been so obtuse.

Oh, and it's not an opinion; it's a fact. I deliberately worded it such that it applies regardless of which kind of "endgame" you choose — high maps, superfast MF Dock runs, even PvP. I'm not dictating what players decide the endgame to be, and a hallmark of a good ARPG is players choosing many different endgames (for some chronic rerollers, Cruel counts as endgame). What I am dictating is that one compares their efficacy against those one is actually playing against, and not some mythical ideal of perfection.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Spoiler

"

Crackmonster wrote:

More than anything, it is lack of simplicity, transparency and accessibility that limits exploration of builds and the building of community knowledge.

This is like saying a city park is more explorable than a forest in the wilderness. The city park is simpler, more transparent, more accessible; this, without a doubt, makes it easier to know. However, knowing and exploring are different concepts. You say "this game is about farm 100-200+ hours of the same, non-endgame content, then try your luck at linking something or maybe buy some item. It's simply not particularly satisfying." How is it that you believe simpler would make it particularly satisfying? It wouldn't.

In terms of the three concepts you've mentioned, I believe the best design is to tier them smoothly towards an eventual end of high complexity, low accessibility, low transparency. I can definitely agree that the game should begin with low complexity, high accessibility, and high transparency to pull new players in and give them an opportunity to familiarize themselves with the mechanics — this is something which GGG realizes is a problem and addresses in the manifesto. However, by the time they reach endgame, things should no longer be a walk in the park, but instead a challenging survival mission in the wilderness. It's all about incremental challenge.

No, it is not the same as saying "a city park is more explorable than a forest in the wilderness". What i said was lack of simplicity, transparency and accessibility was an issue.

I think you're confused; allow me to clarify.

City park = simpler, more accessible, more transparent
Forest wilderness = more complicated, less accessible, more transparent
The forest wilderness is better suited for exploration than the city park.
So why would you believe that simplification, accessibility, and transparency are the answers?

The only distinction to be made here is that between the artificial and the natural barrier. A forest wilderness with a military-grade electric fence around it is less accessible in a way which hiders its explorability. The act of bypassing such a fence would be a substantially different experience from the exploration of the forest itself. In contrast, without the fence the explorer can approach the forest gradually, at his or her own pace, with familiarity decreasing as the expedition delves deeper into uncharted territory.

To put that all in PoE terms, the very early experience — Act 1 Normal in particular, and Normal in general — should have the qualities you espouse; it should be simple and accessible and transparent. In stages, the game should veer away from this, until it reaches an endgame which is very complex, very inaccessible, and very non-transparent. That's part of what gradually escalating difficulty means.

RNG is good for delivering diverse content.

RNG is bad for gating content.

Working as intended in POE.

-=)

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

This is closer to my answer. Since you were able to deduce it yourself, it's a little strange you've been so obtuse.

Oh, and it's not an opinion; it's a fact. I deliberately worded it such that it applies regardless of which kind of "endgame" you choose — high maps, superfast MF Dock runs, even PvP. I'm not dictating what players decide the endgame to be, and a hallmark of a good ARPG is players choosing many different endgames (for some chronic rerollers, Cruel counts as endgame). What I am dictating is that one compares their efficacy against those one is actually playing against, and not some mythical ideal of perfection.

You do know some people purposefully undermine there viability just to enjoy the content right?

Also i never realized a 6-link is a myth, you should go make a thread about that and see how many people believe you.

It is sad to see you write stuff like this. Honestly.

Peace,

Boem

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

I think you're confused; allow me to clarify.

City park = simpler, more accessible, more transparent
Forest wilderness = more complicated, less accessible, more transparent
The forest wilderness is better suited for exploration than the city park.
So why would you believe that simplification, accessibility, and transparency are the answers?

The only distinction to be made here is that between the artificial and the natural barrier. A forest wilderness with a military-grade electric fence around it is less accessible in a way which hiders its explorability. The act of bypassing such a fence would be a substantially different experience from the exploration of the forest itself. In contrast, without the fence the explorer can approach the forest gradually, at his or her own pace, with familiarity decreasing as the expedition delves deeper into uncharted territory.

To put that all in PoE terms, the very early experience — Act 1 Normal in particular, and Normal in general — should have the qualities you espouse; it should be simple and accessible and transparent. In stages, the game should veer away from this, until it reaches an endgame which is very complex, very inaccessible, and very non-transparent. That's part of what gradually escalating difficulty means.

Confusing yourself with complexities doesn't help your clarity.

If you had read instead of going on about something different, you might have noticed the little word "lack", that i underlined in the last post, indicating a lower than normal quality, making your whole talk just hot air. I was talking about relative levels within the same type of "park" in those terms. You are talking about different parks, im comparing the same type of general park.

You do not read to understand, you always read with your pride first, clouding your judgement, which is also why you have to resort to huge explanations to sometimes simple questions, because that's the only way you can end up confusing yourself to believe that you are right in being wrong.

You cannot confuse me like you can yourself.

"

GingerBeast wrote:

The one and ONLY reason I do not fully agree with this post is that actual game content is gated behind RNG. Gear, weapons, even gems, I can understand being reliant on RNG because it is what gives me a reason to keep playing; but actual content being gated behind RNG is too much IMHO.

I am specifically talking about Atrizi here. If I can kill Merc Dom then I should't have to rely on chance to be able to fight Atrizi. I think that putting actual story-line behind a gate of RNG was going too far with it.

It seems that it's not gated behind RNG in the same way that gear isn't.

You can trade for the fragments and go give Atziri a visit.

But you don't have to do that for any other encounter.

So yeah, gating content behind RNG sucks.

"

Worldbreaker wrote:

I too dislike the direction it's taking. They cater to people who want less RNG, and STILL get bashed for it.

People bitch about crafting, they implement crafting recipes, and receive even more negative feedback.
People bitch about linking, they add + quality to increase the odds, people still bitching.
People bitch about gated XP, they add minimum XP gain so you can level up outside of maps. People still complaining.

Yes, without them just handing out free shit you will never be happy. I was against all of it, and they keep putting God damn bumpers up. You saying you should have got a Shavs after palace Dom says it all.

QFFT. I want to see the GGG that says we are making the game we want, and if we dont become millionaires from it it is ok because we are gamers and want to play this game we are making, which is why we are making it.

The combination of the game they made and their stance that they didnt want to be everything to everyone is the main reason i supported, to give them breathing room from the farmville scheduled rewards gamers trying to breath down their neck.

"

LostForm wrote:

The combination of the game they made and their stance that they didnt want to be everything to everyone is the main reason i supported, to give them breathing room from the farmville scheduled rewards gamers trying to breath down their neck.

Worldbreaker's comment was one of the stupidest things I read recently, and here you've gone and surpassed him.

you know what? fuck this! let's have a contest.
that's right: a contest testing ability to build a fun custom character from scratch, knowledge in game mechanics, knowledge in aRPG and RPG fundamentals, and experience with this genre and it's parent genres.

I'm willing to bet this "Farmville gamer" will kick your damned ass in such a contest.
and you know what? I'm willing to bet that if we make this a team contest of all you bloody fanboy auto-white-knights vs. the people who constantly post forum feedback and suggestions - you don't stand a chance.

so, "hardcore" are you man?
the only "hardcore" thing about you guys, is your stubborn desire to defend anything and everything GGG do, while just going into threads and insulting people.

yes I'm mad.
"Farmville gamer" my ass.

the least you could do, is be an intelligent "white knight" like Scrotie here.
his kind are the people that deserve respect, even if I personally disagree with most of his opinions, and yes even if some of his posts occasionally make me lose my cool.

and you know why people "bitch" around the forums? because they care about the game and the direction it is taking. well most of them anyway.
to these people - who provide feedback because they want to see change - most of GGG's changes are a slap in the face.
for example, I'm a guy who wants skill-based rather than random, so "improving" random odds of one in a million, to random odds of one in a hundred thousand - can be summarized like this:

"

johnKeys wrote:

"

LostForm wrote:

The combination of the game they made and their stance that they didnt want to be everything to everyone is the main reason i supported, to give them breathing room from the farmville scheduled rewards gamers trying to breath down their neck.

Worldbreaker's comment was one of the stupidest things I read recently, and here you've gone and surpassed him.

you know what? fuck this! let's have a contest.
that's right: a contest testing ability to build a fun custom character from scratch, knowledge in game mechanics, knowledge in aRPG and RPG fundamentals, and experience with this genre and it's parent genres.

I'm willing to bet this "Farmville gamer" will kick your damned ass in such a contest.
and you know what? I'm willing to bet that if we make this a team contest of all you bloody fanboy auto-white-knights vs. the people who constantly post forum feedback and suggestions - you don't stand a chance.

so, "hardcore" are you man?
the only "hardcore" thing about you guys, is your stubborn desire to defend anything and everything GGG do, while just going into threads and insulting people.

yes I'm mad.
"Farmville gamer" my ass.

the least you could do, is be an intelligent "white knight" like Scrotie here.
his kind are the people that deserve respect, even if I personally disagree with most of his opinions, and yes even if some of his posts occasionally make me lose my cool.

and you know why people "bitch" around the forums? because they care about the game and the direction it is taking. well most of them anyway.
to these people - who provide feedback because they want to see change - most of GGG's changes are a slap in the face.
for example, I'm a guy who wants skill-based rather than random, so "improving" random odds of one in a million, to random odds of one in a hundred thousand - can be summarized like this:

Spoiler

lol.
scheduled rewards ---->

johnkeys being upset by people coming into threads and insulting people. Lol. you are like the most insulting negative person on the boards. get real. also, every thread is not talking directly to or about johnkeys; so you are possibly borderline megalomaniacal aswell. well played.

I also explicitly stated I supported in hopes of letting GGG not be threatened by players like you 'gonna leave and stuff if you dont give me my 6link shavronne's'!

my from scratch custom build is currently in act 3 normal in the two week race. they already have these very contests you are suggesting, you are just so busy blustering about that you dont take advantage of them.

I'm probably going to get a probation, but fuck it I don't care.

did you read this

"

LostForm wrote:

'gonna leave and stuff if you dont give me my 6link shavronne's'!

with your ass?

EDIT: and I'm not threatening anyone. heck, I explicitly said on multiple occasions I still care about the game, and still enjoy many of its good sides.

do you care?
because I have a feeling that you'll leave before I do, and only because GGG do something amazing like make the game risk/reward, thereby benefiting all players.
you'll leave, because you'll define this as "catering to casuals".
you so "hardcore".
the Casino called. they want you back at the craps table, losing all your money.