Updated 2/19/2014 Anti-RMT Self-Found Tags for ALL Leagues in All Windows + SF Maps (other details)

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Morgoth2356 wrote:

It's not a matter of the ability to play together or not. I said that GGG don't want the community to be split between SC and HC players (as it is discussed in Athene - Chris interview), so they have no reason to split it afterwards between SF and non-SF players. But HC and SC players can't play together, it's more a matter of "how can we work in a way that the community doesn't feel split between HC and SC, that HC and SC players are playing the same game and are in the same community ?". So the fact SF and non-SF could play together doesn't mean they could not be split "in spirit", if I may say.

So what are you and this interview proposing, to get rid of HC and let there just be one league everyone plays in? That's not the answer! Even if it was possible to somehow (beyond me) to combine HC and SC together to where they're not split into separate leagues, that would contradict what you and the interview are talking about since there would still be a split between players.

People are going to split anyway no matter what in some way, shape, or form. What you bring up is not enough basis to shoot down the idea of SF tags.

SF tags is an idea that's a league within all leagues, but quite literally, it's a feature across all leagues since it's not an actual league.

Players can also do away with it when they want.

The difference with a player's choice of HC or Nemesis is once your character is a HC or Nemesis character, there is no undoing it unless you delete the character and pick another league.

SF tags are not forced and would not require you to make a new character.

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CCR5 wrote:

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

The OP has been optimized.HeavyMetalGear

This is half solution which requires MOAR programming efforts than plain SFL.

Explain exactly what you mean by 'half solution.' Half the solution to what? I covered everything people here said was wrong with the SF Tag idea with viable fixes.

Let's compare the developer time between SFL and SF tags . . .

Self-Found League programming / features / design requirements:

1. GGG's developers would have to design a new SF league flag for all players within the SFL and for it to be displayed in all the appropriate windows.

2. GGG's developers would have to implement another league and league flag displayed in the Leagues Options Screen upon character creation.

However, there is there is no room for another league flag, which would then require GGG's developers to have to re-size everything within the current League Options Screen.

3. RNG and drop rates would have to be changed by GGG's developers for all currency and each enemy and boss type throughout the world of Wraelclast. (That's a lot of values to go through!)

Not to mention, GGG's developers would quite possibly be forced to have to change the RNG and drop rates for other leagues, too, since players are going to call it 'unfair' that the SFL gets RNG and drop rate changes, but the SC, HC, Domination and Nemesis leagues do not.

However, if it came to that, GGG would probably need to get rid of the SFL entirely in which all their time has gone to waste implementing the SFL. But GGG is not stupid because they know if they make a SFL, there is no going back

GGG already knows the issues I speak of, which is why it will never be in PoE.

4. GGG's developers will also need to maintain new features, etc. pertaining to the SFL, and implement newly emerging suggestions in the suggestions forums. Not only that, there would be additional bugs to fix since there would be a new league being the SFL.

To example what I mean by features alone (not to mention, bug fixes,) here is what I mean:

The Domination League: A variety of powerful shrines spawn along with large groups of monsters that receive powerful buffs from the shrine. If you get close to a shrine and "tag" it, you receive the shrine's bonuses for a short time.

The Nemesis League: A hardcore league where rare monsters have one guaranteed mod from the Nemesis Pool, which can make a fight substantially harder. Rare monsters are more powerful, make players weaker, or have special effects on death.

But what about Self-Found League? Now GGG's developers would also need to program / design a whole new system for the SFL (whatever that would be.)

Overall (guessing GGG's staff works 10 hours a day,) you're looking at a solid week worth of work to get everything right, about 70 uninterrupted hours total, if not, less than that.

Within that 70 hours (or less,) that includes testing, too.

Self-Found Tags programming / features / design requirements:

1. GGG's developers would have to implement game code where immediately after a player makes a new character, the text (TEXT!) 'SF' is added to the Party Window, player Life Bars, and create a 10x10 (if not smaller) SF badge next to SF-tagged player names within the Chat Window.

2. GGG's developers would have to implement game code where if SF-tagged players pick up an item, it becomes SF-tagged within the item's tooltip.

3. GGG's developers would have to implement identification game code where if a player is SF-tagged attempting to trade someone who does not have a SF Tag (or another player who is SF-tagged,) the action would be to remove the 'SF' text from all windows (consult #1)

4. GGG's developers would have to implement identification game code where if items are seen as not being SF-tagged, and the player is SF-tagged, the SF Tag (not SF tags on items) is removed.

5. GGG's developers would have to implement game code where only if SF-tagged items are placed within the Trade Window, the SF tags are immediately removed from those items, and so too would the SF Tag be removed from the SF-tagged player trying to trade SF-tagged items.

Overall (guessing GGG's staff works 10 hours a day,) you're looking at a full 2 days worth of work via 20 solid uninterrupted hours within the two days, and 4 more hours within the third day, if not, a little more or less than that.

Within that 24 hours (or less,) that includes testing, too.


P.S. If I missed anything, let me know.

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

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CCR5 wrote:

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

The OP has been optimized.HeavyMetalGear

This is half solution which requires MOAR programming efforts than plain SFL.

Explain exactly what you mean by 'half solution.' Half the solution to what? I covered everything people here said was wrong with the SF Tag idea with viable fixes.

You want honest league with ladder et al, not some tags which are easy to lose.
Just like HC is not implemented as SC with HC tags.

Because you want self-consistency (or how do I call it).

If SFtagged char is being carried by non-SFtagged chars, it is only technically SF, right?

If you want to giveaway some white low-level 5L you're not going to use to new player,
how does that makes you non-SF?

What if you traded with a friend but then realized it is not worth it and traded back(!),
what are you going to do, you're going to write to support(!) and bother real people
with non-problems.

The point is that the solution has to be technically self-contained otherwise cracks will quickly destroy it (see 2nd bug abused lvl 100 discussions).

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

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Morgoth2356 wrote:

It's not a matter of the ability to play together or not. I said that GGG don't want the community to be split between SC and HC players (as it is discussed in Athene - Chris interview), so they have no reason to split it afterwards between SF and non-SF players. But HC and SC players can't play together, it's more a matter of "how can we work in a way that the community doesn't feel split between HC and SC, that HC and SC players are playing the same game and are in the same community ?". So the fact SF and non-SF could play together doesn't mean they could not be split "in spirit", if I may say.

So what are you and this interview proposing, to get rid of HC and let there just be one league everyone plays in? That's not the answer!

That's not what I said, in fact it's the exact opposite, you didn't understand : I said that splitting players is not a matter of "can they play together or not", it's a matter of "spirit", a "feeling" that you're in the same community. Being in the same league is not the necessary condition to be "together", just as not being in the same league is not a necessary condition to be split.

Of course SC and HC can't play together ! But GGG is trying that SC and HC players, even if of course they can't be in the same leagues, feel that they are playing the same game and are in the same community. So what I was saying is that you can be in different leagues, yet you can be not "split", because it is also a matter of spirit, or feeling if you prefer.

In the case of SF tags, it can work in the other way : SF and non SF would be in the same leagues, yet they can be split. So the fact that they would be in the same leagues as others is nothing enough to say that it won't split the community.

CCR5 wrote:
"You want honest league with ladder et al, not some tags which are easy to lose.
Just like HC is not implemented as SC with HC tags."

HeavyMetalGear replied:
"Your argument is moot, one reason being HC tags being on SC characters doesn't work. Explain that one to me without it sounding ridiculous . . .

On the other hand, the Domination and the Nemesis leagues being together is something that can be explained, however, it would be ridiculous and problematic. If there were Nem-tagged characters in the Domination League, that would mean Nem-tagged players can use shrines in the Domination League. Then you would have Dom-tagged players in which they wouldn't be able to kill enemies / bosses with guaranteed mods, which would make fighting tougher for those players.

What you would end up having in that situations is the Domination League and the Nemesis League within softcore league, or something to that effect. It simply doesn't make sense . . ." Long story short, you wouldn't exactly have a Domination or a Nemesis league at that point.

CCR5 wrote:
"If SF-tagged char is being carried by non-SFtagged chars, it is only technically SF, right?"

HeavyMetalGear replied:
"Sort of, but more than not, yeah. Why? Because if you're in a party whether SF-tagged or not SF-tagged, you are rightfully (or should be) contributing to damage output in battle in which everyone should be given the right to pick up whatever items they want from enemies.

Otherwise, if SF-tagged players want to be literal about it they can simply play alone and get whatever items drop only for them. Having it to where only SF-tagged items drop for SF-tagged players in battle would require a lot of unnecessary developer time, which is why I didn't mention it in my idea."

CCR5 wrote:
"If you want to giveaway some white low-level 5L you're not going to use to new player,
how does that makes you non-SF?"

HeavyMetalGear replied:
"Whether you're giving something away or not, if your items are SF-tagged, players who are not SF-tagged cannot pick them up. The only way to get rid of SF tags on SF-tagged gear is if a SF-tagged player place SF-tagged gear in the Trade Window, thereby immediately getting rid of all SF tags on those items.

THEN you can give those items away."

CCR5 wrote:
"What if you traded with a friend but then realized it is not worth it and traded back(!),
what are you going to do, you're going to write to support(!) and bother real people
with non-problems."

HeavyMetalGear replied:
"What part of SF-tagged players not being able to trade (without losing their SF Tag) do you not understand? The SF Tag idea in the OP is the way it is for a reason to discourage (not restrict) SF-tagged players from trading, and to prevent SF-tagged players from wearing gear that was not found on a SF-tagged character.

If I was to allow it in the SF Tag idea to let SF-tagged characters wear gear that was TRADED on a character that's not SF-tagged, that would be considered cheating via an exploit.

With that being said, if you're an SF-tagged player wanting to give away your gear, SURE! You can do it (trade is not restricted from SF-tagged players,) but you will lose your SF tag in the process since the only way to trade would be through the Trade Window.

Why? Because, again, items dropped by SF-tagged players is SF-tagged, and cannot be picked up by players who are not SF-tagged."

CCR5 wrote:
"The point is that the solution has to be technically self-contained otherwise cracks will quickly destroy it (see 2nd bug abused lvl 100 discussions)."

HeavyMetalGear replied:
"What are you getting at here? 'Cracks'? If you want to call balances in an idea 'cracks,' those are not cracks. The ease of SF tags being destroyed is to discourage those who want to be SF from trading, otherwise, any attempt to trade another player will result in losing the SF Tag.

With that being said, it seems you never bothered viewing the image illustrating upon character creation within the Leagues Options Window (on what league you want to play.) There is an OPTION to Disable or Enable Trade Requests, thereby solving the issue of players losing their SF Tag by accident by trading another player.

At that point, there is no excuse(s), if you lose your SF Tag, that's your fault because you would have to forcibly trade someone for that to happen.



P.S. Everyone here can try to corner me, but it's not happening because I got this idea ironed out quite well, and I will always have answers."

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Morgoth2356 wrote:

That's not what I said, in fact it's the exact opposite, you didn't understand : I said that splitting players is not a matter of "can they play together or not", it's a matter of "spirit", a "feeling" that you're in the same community. Being in the same league is not the necessary condition to be "together", just as not being in the same league is not a necessary condition to be split.

Of course SC and HC can't play together ! But GGG is trying that SC and HC players, even if of course they can't be in the same leagues, feel that they are playing the same game and are in the same community. So what I was saying is that you can be in different leagues, yet you can be not "split", because it is also a matter of spirit, or feeling if you prefer.

In the case of SF tags, it can work in the other way : SF and non SF would be in the same leagues, yet they can be split. So the fact that they would be in the same leagues as others is nothing enough to say that it won't split the community.

Like I said (you seem to ignore,) there is always going to be a split with or without SF tags in that players who feel they're superior because of their level and the gear they wear will alienate and never invite players to a party who don't meet up to the standards of their arrogance.

That's not the idea of SF tags fault, that's a people issue. To say otherwise would be like saying he who invented guns is the person to blame for crimes! Guns don't kill people, people kill people. The same goes for SF tags; SF tags doesn't separate people, people separate themselves from other people.

Again, this is yet another moot remark. Furthermore, if that's the only true qualm with this idea you can find (more of a people problem,) then that's not bad considering I got everything else ironed out in the idea.

At the of the day, a SFL is not going to happen for reasons stated throughout my OP. Therefore, this alternative idea I brought to the table is the only other way SF will ever come about, if ever it will come about in any way, shape, or form.

P.S. I still await whoever has issues with the SF Tag idea to come up with something better than what I propose for an alternative to the idea of Self-Found.

If you cannot come up with something better, at least TRY to add to the idea within the OP so that we can iron things out a little more if need be. That's what discussion is all about!

I can see why your suggestion is attractive to some, but for me the point of self-found is not bragging about it as hardcore players do for playing in a fake hardcore league. The point of self-found is to avoid the very tedious trading system.

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Cehasha wrote:

I can see why your suggestion is attractive to some, but for me the point of self-found is not bragging about it as hardcore players do for playing in a fake hardcore league. The point of self-found is to avoid the very tedious trading system.

*Sigh* Really? I've exhausted explanation regarding SF tags to my wits ends.

That's the IDEA! Everyone will be given a SF Tag upon character creation, and whether they want to maintain their SF Tag by not trading anyone is entirely up to them, and at the same time, SF-tagged players can still be recognized as being SF without getting rid of the entire trade system, which is, to a great many, totally unacceptable and very controversial, far more than the idea I bring forth in my OP.

Furthermore, not everyone would be maintaining their SF Tag to stroke their arrogance. That's an overgeneralized thought to entertain. A great many more players would maintain their SF Tag for the sake of getting through the game without trading.

You guys are making this out to be more complex than need be.

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Cehasha wrote:

I can see why your suggestion is attractive to some, but for me the point of self-found is not bragging about it as hardcore players do for playing in a fake hardcore league.

Yeah, because calling hardcore/nemesis "fake hardcore league" is really better than hardcore players calling SC "scrubscore" for example *eyeroll*. This is not on topic of this thread, but I have seen much more SC to HC trolling on these forums than HC to SC.

EDIT : @ OP ok I get your idea about splitting and all that. I don't have an alternative solution but thanks again for a very well done post.

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

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The interest of a self-found league is mainly the increases in drop rate which would allow self-found players to beat high-level maps as traders do. I am not so far in the game yet, but this is apparently currently abnormally difficult if not downright impossible. In which way your tag could solve this problem? It is probable that I did not understand your idea very well because I am a tired non-english speaker, but as far as I understand it, this is simply some sort of cosmetic effect.

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Morgoth2356 wrote:

Yeah, because calling hardcore/nemesis "fake hardcore league" is really better than hardcore players calling SC "scrubscore" for example *eyeroll*.

That was the joke.