Updated 2/19/2014 Anti-RMT Self-Found Tags for ALL Leagues in All Windows + SF Maps (other details)

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

...Allowing trading whatsoever with other players for currency or not goes against the rule(s) of what rightly defines Self-Found. If players want to trade in any way, shape, or form, they need not be playing Self-Found...

So, a Self-Found character is a regular character that is restricted from trading in any way, and the character has a visible SF tag on all of his/her stuff even though it is obvious that all of the stuff is Self-Found because the character was born unable to trade.

I think my point is, the SF tag is trivial on items if your character is born unable to trade. If you could never trade to begin with, and are barred from doing so, then you will always be Self-Found no matter what.. So, why the tag on like, EVERYTHING. I can understand a simple SF tag suffixing characters' names on the health bar and social screens, that is about it.

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Perfect_Black wrote:

So, a Self-Found character is a regular character that is restricted from trading in any way, and the character has a visible SF tag on all of his/her stuff even though it is obvious that all of the stuff is Self-Found because the character was born unable to trade.

I think my point is, the SF tag is trivial on items if your character is born unable to trade. If you could never trade to begin with, and are barred from doing so, then you will always be Self-Found no matter what.. So, why the tag on like, EVERYTHING. I can understand a simple SF tag suffixing characters' names on the health bar and social screens, that is about it.

Let me be clearer in saying this, taken from the updated OP, "1. Just because you choose the option to Disable Trade Requests in the Leagues Option Screen when making a new character, does not mean you cannot still lose your SF Tag! I want to make this very clear. You're only safe by not getting incoming Trade Request, but not if you willingly choose to have your SF Tag removed by forcibly trading another player."

You won't be entirely restricted from Trade. It's up to you, the player, on whether or not you want to give up your SF Tag at any time.

Not only that, SF-tagged gear/items makes it so characters you have that are not SF-tagged cannot give their SF-tagged characters the gear. That then destroys the idea of Self-Found.

If you have any other questsions, let me know.

P.S. My OP never stays exactly the same until I iron out all the issues, etc. Therefore, it is being updated periodically as we speak so I am clear on everything.

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

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Perfect_Black wrote:

Spoiler

So, a Self-Found character is a regular character that is restricted from trading in any way, and the character has a visible SF tag on all of his/her stuff even though it is obvious that all of the stuff is Self-Found because the character was born unable to trade.

I think my point is, the SF tag is trivial on items if your character is born unable to trade. If you could never trade to begin with, and are barred from doing so, then you will always be Self-Found no matter what.. So, why the tag on like, EVERYTHING. I can understand a simple SF tag suffixing characters' names on the health bar and social screens, that is about it.

Let me be clearer in saying this, taken from the updated OP, "1. Just because you choose the option to Disable Trade Requests in the Leagues Option Screen when making a new character, does not mean you cannot still lose your SF Tag! I want to make this very clear. You're only safe by not getting incoming Trade Request, but not if you willingly choose to have your SF Tag removed."

You won't be entirely restricted from Trade. It's up to you, the player, on whether or not you want to give up your SF Tag at any time.

Spoiler

Not only that, SF-tagged gear/items makes it so characters you have that are not SF-tagged cannot give their SF-tagged characters the gear. That then destroys the idea of Self-Found.

If you have any other questsions, let me know.

P.S. My OP never stays exactly the same until I iron out all the issues, etc. Therefore, it is being updated periodically as we speak so I am clear on everything.

So, why would the 'enable/disable trading requests' option exist at the time of character creation. Why not just put it somewhere in the main options panel for all your characters to access and toggle on/off at any time? And it could have a default state. What if you happen to WANT to trade on one of your trading-disabled characters one day, but you disabled trading 83 levels ago? Do you have to negotiate a old-school drop trade (lol)?

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Perfect_Black wrote:

So, why would the 'enable/disable trading requests' option exist at the time of character creation. Why not just put it somewhere in the main options panel for all your characters to access and toggle on/off at any time? And it could have a default state. What if you happen to WANT to trade on one of your trading-disabled characters one day, but you disabled trading 83 levels ago? Do you have to negotiate a old-school drop trade (lol)?

If your SF-tagged character gets its SF Tag removed, any other character you have that's without a SF Tag can then give your character gear who was once SF-tagged.

The reason why that option is there in the Leagues Options Window is because whether or not you, the player, decides to Enable or Disable Trade Requests, you are still assigned a SF Tag no matter what. Therefore, the option is there to prevent the mishap of accepting anyone's Trade Request by accident.

The option to turn Trade Requests ON/OFF could be put into the options, too, however, no matter what, if you decide just once by force to Trade another player, you lose your SF Tag.

At that point when you lose your SF Tag and you're say, 83 levels in, the only use of the ON/OFF button for Trade Requests comes to whether or not you want to get incoming requests. Since your SF Tag is gone, there is no need for the precautions of having Trade Requests disabled.

Furthermore, if you want to trade on one of your Trade Request disabled characters (not Trading-Disabled, there's a difference,) you still can, but you risk losing your SF Tag on that character.

In a nutshell, once you are assigned a SF Tag and you willingly choose to remove it by trading another player, you can trade all you want at that point, but you have no SF Tag anymore. To get another SF Tag means you would need to make a new character. SF Tags are not assigned to players after it's removed just by turning Trade Requests ON/OFF.

As for the rest of what you said, No.

I dunno, item management is already annoying enough in this game. It is like cleaning up an email inbox. I'm trying to imagine having multiple characters in league X where half of the characters are SF tagged and half are not. The global stash would be a mess and annoying to deal with, I feel. I can't use this SF item on this non SF tagged character. I can't use this non SF item on this SF tagged character. Sounds a bit painful actually.

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

SF-Tagged Gear picked up by SF-Tagged Player(s):

Dropped items by a SF-Tagged Player cannot be traded to, used, or equipped by players who are not SF-tagged.

Why?? If you are a SF tagged player, and you have an item I want, but I am not a SF tagged player, I literally can't use the item? I can't share a SF item of mine with a non SF tagged character of mine? Overly restrictive, imo.

Also, big question:

What would happen to all currently existing characters? Do they get 'grandfathered in' and acquire SF tags on everything (regardless of inaccuracy), or vice versa (default to non SF and no items are considered SF)?

Perfect_Black wrote:
"Item management is already annoying enough in this game. It is like cleaning up an email inbox. I'm trying to imagine having multiple characters in league X where half of the characters are SF tagged and half are not. The global stash would be a mess and annoying to deal with, I feel. I can't use this SF item on this non SF tagged character. I can't use this non SF item on this SF tagged character. Sounds a bit painful actually."

HeavyMetalGear replied:
"Please know I am trying everything in my intellectual power to make this idea 'the best of all worlds' much as possible. Since we're not getting a SFL, it's time for something new, and I think, considering, I have done an exceptional job at weighing everything out everyone's said here, including you.

There's really no item management, as you put it, at all. Whatever items drop in battle is open to everyone in that no items are SF-tagged. When items become SF-tagged, all PoE's code has to do, as stated in the OP, is do an ID check on a player's character and their items. That's not item management, that's ID checking things to keep it balanced.

However, if you're playing a character that's not SF-tagged, and you find sifting through SF-tagged gear to be a problem to you because you cannot wear it, then all I can say to that is one should really make up their mind on whether they want to play SF, or not. Or, separate your SF-tagged gear from the gear that is not SF-tagged.

Then again, soon as you hover your mouse over an item, you're going to see the SF Tag on it, anyway, so you know the difference between items that are not SF tagged vs. those that are.

On another note, SF-tagged items are a must because SF wouldn't really be SF if items you're trading to other players on a non SF character are usable on a SF character."

Perfect_Black quotes HeavyMetalGear:
"SF-Tagged Gear picked up by SF-Tagged Player(s):

Dropped items by a SF-tagged player cannot be traded to, used, or equipped by players who are not SF-tagged."

Perfect_Black went on to say:
"Why? If you are a SF-tagged player, and you have an item I want, but I am not a SF-tagged player, I literally can't use the item? I can't share a SF item of mine with a non SF tagged character of mine? Overly restrictive, imo."

HeavyMetalGear replied:
"Why? Because if ever a SF-tagged player trades a player that's not SF-tagged, the SF-tagged player loses their SF Tag. There is then no way of getting it back unless you remake a new character. Doing trading through dropping gear, etc. is not an option because if items are able to be picked up by both SF-tagged players and players who are not SF-tagged, that then would bring us back to square one on why allowing that would be a bad idea.

And no, a character that's not SF-tagged cannot use a SF-tagged character's items, etc. for the fact that when SF-tagged characters pick up items, they become SF-tagged. That there is the square one I am talking about.

The only form of trade a SF-tagged character can do and a character that's not SF-tagged is the dropping of Wisdom Scrolls and Portal Scrolls only, and the mere opening of the Trade Window, that's it. The only reason the Trade Window being able to be open between a SF-tagged player and a player that's not SF-tagged is so SF-tagged players can get rid of their SF Tag at any time so they can Trade like everyone else does.

I understand you're saying this is strict, but someone else here in the commentaries told me there was absolutely no way to balance my idea in such way where it could not be abused. Since I was given fuel to my fire, it then made me even more determined to find a way, and now I have.

If I don't get the idea right before put into place, if ever put into place, players are going to be complaining about the imbalances and issues anyway, so why not solve the problems here and now?"

Perfect_Black wrote:
"What would happen to all currently existing characters? Do they get 'grandfathered in' and acquire SF tags on everything (regardless of inaccuracy), or vice versa (default to non SF and no items are considered SF)?"

HeavyMetalGear replied:
"Either player characters can be grandfathered in on the new system and their items won't be labeled SF, or they'll have to make a new character to benefit from it. That would be up to GGG on what they want to do with that."

Your question was a great quest. Thank you. I have now updated my OP.

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

And no, a character that's not SF-tagged cannot use a SF-tagged character's items, etc. for the fact that one SF-tagged character picks up any items, they become SF-tagged. That there is the square one I am talking about.

Why should self-found tags limit item usage like you say?

Shouldn't a non SF character be able to acquire and use a 'SF-Tagged' item? They would exist together in the same league, after all. Maybe a SF character has an item that I really want. Can he or she not gift the item to me somehow, without he or she losing his or her SF tag, but obviously preventing me from holding a SF tag?

To me, it sounds like you are talking about creating a kind of SF/non-SF item duality within all existing leagues. I would rather see a separate Self Found league existing on its own than have all leagues subjected to this SF tag system. Character tags, recognition for being self-found, sure. But, SF tags on all items, and item trade and usage restrictions within all existing leagues, no thanks.

An item has either changed accounts or it has not. Simple. If item has-not-changed-accounts, then it is self-found by the owner. Otherwise, the item has changed accounts and can prevent any owner from having a self-found tag displayed. Simple.

Erased duplicated message.

Perfect_Black wrote:
"Why should self-found tags limit item usage like you say?

Shouldn't a non SF character be able to acquire and use a 'SF-Tagged' item? They would exist together in the same league, after all. Maybe a SF character has an item that I really want. Can he or she not gift the item to me somehow, without he or she losing his or her SF tag, but obviously preventing me from holding a SF tag?

To me, it sounds like you are talking about creating a kind of SF/non-SF item duality within all existing leagues. I would rather see a separate Self Found league existing on its own than have all leagues subjected to this SF tag system. Character tags, recognition for being self-found, sure. But, SF tags on all items, and item trade and usage restrictions within all existing leagues, no thanks.

An item has either changed accounts or it has not. Simple. If item has-not-changed-accounts, then it is self-found by the owner. Otherwise, the item has changed accounts and can prevent any owner from having a self-found tag displayed. Simple."

HeavyMetalGear replied:
"I just explained why. Just because a SF-tagged characters exists within the same league as a character that's not SF-tagged, does not make it OK for a SF-tagged character to use items from a character that's not SF-tagged. It's simple. It's not OK since your Stash is shared across all characters in any specific league. The reason for SF-tagged items, again, is because it would be considered cheating IF you're doing trading with your other characters that are not SF-tagged for the sake of giving those items to your SF-tagged character(s).

I am not saying everyone would do that, but most players would because it's an exploit.

At that point, you may as well not have a SF Tag whatsoever if all players are going to do is abuse the system by letting their SF-tagged characters use gear from characters not SF-tagged.

On another note, SF-tagged characters would of course be able to use gear from other SF-tagged characters."

Perfect_Black wrote:
"But, SF tags on all items, and item trade and usage restrictions within all existing leagues, no thanks."

HeavyMetalGear replied:
"You're still not understanding. IF a SF-tagged character were to trade another player, let's say another SF-tagged player, both of you lose your SF Tags, and your items would lose their SF Tags, too.

The restrictions only apply to SF-tagged characters and those that are not SF-tagged. With that said, if you lose your SF Tag by forcibly trading another player, you then have your SF Tag taken away from you in which you can freely trade with other players that are not SF-tagged.

If you're SF-tagged dude, yeah, trading is NOT recommended. Trading not being recommended does not mean trading is not permitted. Simple. The penalty for attempting to trade other players while SF-tagged is you get your SF Tag taken away because it's considered cheating.

P.S. SFL is not only not the answer, but it's not happening. If ever you get to understanding my idea, you will see there's less flaws and issues with it than a SFL, which BEGS to change the RNG and drop rates. NO.

The idea of SFL = Self-Found yet begs for RNG & drop rate changes to find and craft items easier, among others issues with it stated in the OP.

I don't want to be spoonfed an easier game.

The idea of SF Tags = Self-Found while keeping everything the way it is throughout all leagues, including RNG and drop rates, yet trading is not recommended for SF-tagged players since they can lose their SF Tag."

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

I just explained why. Just because a SF-tagged characters exists within the same league as a character that's not SF-tagged, does not make it OK for a SF-tagged character to use items from a character that's not SF-tagged. It's simple. It's not OK since your Stash is shared across all characters in any specific league. The reason for SF-tagged items, again, is because it would be considered cheating IF you're doing trading with your other characters that are not SF-tagged for the sake of giving those items to your SF-tagged character(s).

I think that it would be OK for a SF tagged character to use items from a non SF tagged character. The result would just be that the SF tagged character would lose his or her SF tag. There is no need for item usage restrictions based on SF or non-SF state.

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

On another note, SF-tagged characters would of course be able to use gear from other SF-tagged characters.

So, SF tagged characters can use gear from other SF tagged characters but not from non SF tagged characters. It is like a league within a league. All leagues become hybridized. No thanks.

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

You're still not understanding. IF a SF-tagged character were to trade another player, let's say another SF-tagged player, both of you lose your SF Tags, and your items would lose their SF Tags, too.

Why would all of the items lose their SF tags? They are no less SF after the trade than before the trade. In my mind, the only items that are no longer SF items, are the ones that exchanged accounts. If both parties were to immediately drop or destroy or vendor the item(s) received in trade, I don't see why they couldn't re-acquire SF status.