Updated 2/19/2014 Anti-RMT Self-Found Tags for ALL Leagues in All Windows + SF Maps (other details)

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2ofSpades wrote:
@HeavyMetalGear

I haven't read anywhere how a SF tag will solve the problem of map groups. Will SF players be able to party with a map group that has traded for the resources used for the maps?


It's late for me at the moment (I have to sleep,) but tomorrow I will address this in the OP.

In short, yes. SF-tagged players would be able to map with non SF-tagged players since my idea does not involve a complete separation between SF-tagged players and non SF-tagged players when it comes to what players you can Party with.

So even though items that are found by non SF-tagged players can be picked up by SF-tagged players when in a Party, this does not not affect who you can party with since that would be too restricting.

However (for the sake of literal argument,) some people would say the above should not be possible, but in the end, since SF-tagged players and non SF-tagged players both contribute to damage output, IIR, IIQ, and assistance in battle, it is therefore justifiable everyone get their fair share of items.

In addition to that, items found by players who are not SF-tagged in a group get SF-tagged when picked up by a SF-tagged player in which those SF-tagged items cannot be picked up by a non SF-tagged player (IF those items were dropped by a SF-tagged player.)

That being said, SF-tagged items can be traded to a non SF-tagged player, but in doing that, your character and the items lose their SF Tag.

I cannot explain it any better than that.
When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails.
Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism
does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect.
(me)
Last edited by HeavyMetalGear#2712 on Feb 18, 2014, 2:44:33 AM
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HeavyMetalGear wrote:
Spoiler
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HeavyMetalGear wrote:
It makes no sense not to be SF-tagged most of the time, and only be SF-tagged some of the time.
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Perfect_Black wrote:
I agree with this statement.

I am going to add to my ideas that any items looted by a character while wearing even just 1 non SF item could not be considered SF items. It wouldn't be right to allow items found while in a non SF state to be considered SF items.
You keep forgetting that items picked up by a SF-tagged character becomes SF-tagged, and therefore, it is impossible for a SF-tagged character to loot non SF-tagged items in that when they're picked up they become SF-tagged.

When I say looted, what I mean is what happens after a SF-tagged character picks up items.

Furthermore to the above stated, the only way a character can loot non SF-tagged gear is if your character does not have a SF Tag, and so when items are picked up by a character without a SF Tag, those items do not become SF-tagged.
I understand. I was using your ideas in a different way really. What I was trying to convey is that a character who has lost his/her tag (due to possessing a non SF item) cannot loot SF items (same as your idea - they are no longer in a SF state). However, if that same character gets rid of the item(s) that are not SF, for example, by vendoring every held item to become naked (or just getting rid of the specific non SF pieces), then that character can get back its SF tag and again start to loot SF items. The catch being that, the longer you are in a non SF state (no SF tag), the more items you accumulate that you cannot use if you want to be SF again. To become SF again, players would have to back track to the highest items acquired while still in a SF state, and start looting new SF items from that point while wearing only SF gear.

I know you are more interested in a highly strict SF tag system that would enforce the SF state at every point, and any simple action that involves acquiring a non SF item would cause a character to lose its SF state forever. Like I have said earlier, I find this strictness overbearing.

Your system would send a strong message like "I have never engaged in trade or held an item that was not found by me, ever". My system would send a message more like "All of the gear I am currently wearing was found by me while only using gear that was found by me. Maybe I engaged in trade in the past. Maybe I possessed an item that I did not find, but I have since gotten rid of those non SF items, and worked my way up to my current gear in a purely SF manner." Basically, my system would allow for redemption, while yours would not; it would also allow for short-term experimentation without permanent loss of SF tags.

You want a more "hardcore" SF tag system, for lack of better works. I am content with a SF state system, that would allow players to move in and out of a SF state based on choices.

"
HeavyMetalGear wrote:
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Perfect_Black wrote:
Spoiler
So, if you have leveled up a character to say, level 80, and the character has been in a non SF state the majority of the time, then most, if not all, of the items that you have accumulated from that character would not be SF items. Therefore, to re-acquire a SF tag on that character would be quite difficult and time consuming because you would have to equip only items that were found while in a SF state, and you were not in one very long, so you did not accumulate many SF items. Basically, at level 80, you would be equipping complete trash leveling gear and essentially starting over to work your way up the gear hierarchy.
So what you're saying is if you're level 80 and lost your SF Tag 40 levels ago, yet you want to be SF-tagged again even though the majority of the time you've been a non SF-tagged player, you would then not have the gear to prove you're a SF-tagged player since most of your gear is not SF-tagged?
Kind of, yeah. I am saying you could again hold a SF tag, but you would not have much SF gear to show for it. You would be level 80 with a bunch of level 40 or less stuff, if you even held onto it. Basically, at level 80, you would not be able to take on much content while in a SF state because you wouldn't have suitable SF items to gear with.

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:
Think about this: who is to say a level 80 player who regains their SF Tag (displayed in all windows again) is not going to lie by not showing their gear? My point is in your idea, players can regain their SF Tag all they want, but just because they're SF-tagged again (after not being SF-tagged for 40 levels) does not mean they are a legit Self-Found player.

The problem with your idea is you're going to have a problem with a bunch of players in-game asking for proof from other players saying, "Prove you got SF-tagged gear that meets your level."

Failure to do that would then prove you're not really a Self-Found player. You would be considered a wannabe SF-tagged player through the leniency of being able to get your SF Tag back at anytime.

In my idea, this is not a problem in that players screaming, "Prove it!" would never happen.
Well, you make a good point. There would be SF fakers and actual SF players who could handle lots of game content while in a SF state. Actually, this sounds rather interesting to me. The tag would not convey much by itself. You would have to see the SF players in action to see how accomplished that they really are.
TY to those who called me out on my BS on these forums. There is no benefit to being so selfish as to fail to acknowledge others' differing beliefs of what "should be" or believe your own opinions so supreme as to be factual and thus dismiss others' opinions as being somehow a lie or delusional.
Last edited by Perfect_Black#6704 on Feb 18, 2014, 3:41:16 AM
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HeavyMetalGear wrote:
In short, yes. SF-tagged players would be able to map with non SF-tagged players since my idea does not involve a complete separation between SF-tagged players and non SF-tagged players.


Well, there's no real point to the tag then if SF players are able to still benefit from trading.
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Perfect_Black wrote:
You want a more "hardcore" SF tag system, for lack of better works. I am content with a SF state system, that would allow players to move in and out of a SF state based on choices.


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HeavyMetalGear wrote:
This is really the sum of your idea of a SF Tag System vs. mine in the OP. *nods* I cannot agree with it. It's too forgiving. You say my idea is too hardcore, and I say your idea is too forgiving and violates what Self-Found is really all about.

And it's not so much my idea of a SF Tag System is 'hardcore,' rather it conforms (not a common word in my book) to the general idea of what rightly defines Self-Found throughout the PoE community, a definition the majority agrees with, that which is to incur a penalty if ever SF-tagged players trade SF-tagged or non SF-tagged items, or equip items not SF-tagged in any way, shape, or form.

As stated in my OP, I'm not one of those who would really use this SF Tag System (go figure,) and so when I went into this idea I had the people's interests in mind, not just my own interests so maybe we can have Self-Found in some way, shape, or form in PoE.


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Perfect_Black wrote:
Kind of, yeah. I am saying you could again hold a SF tag, but you would not have much SF gear to show for it. You would be level 80 with a bunch of level 40 or less stuff, if you even held onto it. Basically, at level 80, you would not be able to take on much content while in a SF state because you wouldn't have suitable SF items to gear with.


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HeavyMetalGear wrote:
Even so, this is really not a balanced penalty against players who are not SF who want to become SF again. Which brings me (again) to the main problem in your idea; there really are no penalties since it's so forgiving.


Perfect_Black quotes HeavyMetalGear:

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:
Think about this: who is to say a level 80 player who regains their SF Tag (displayed in all windows again) is not going to lie by not showing their gear? My point is in your idea, players can regain their SF Tag all they want, but just because they're SF-tagged again (after not being SF-tagged for 40 levels) does not mean they are a legit Self-Found player.

The problem with your idea is you're going to have a problem with a bunch of players in-game asking for proof from other players saying, "Prove you got SF-tagged gear that meets your level."

Failure to do that would then prove you're not really a Self-Found player. You would be considered a wannabe SF-tagged player through the leniency of being able to get your SF Tag back at anytime.

In my idea, this is not a problem in that players screaming, "Prove it!" would never happen.


"
Perfect_Black wrote:
Well, you make a good point. There would be SF fakers and actual SF players who could handle lots of game content while in a SF state. Actually, this sounds rather interesting to me. The tag would not convey much by itself. You would have to see the SF players in action to see how accomplished that they really are.


"
HeavyMetalGear wrote:
You're right. The SF Tag, as you say, would not convey much by itself only IF the original idea of a SF Tag System (in my OP) conforms to your idea of a SF Tag System. Do you see how that just said is not the other way around? This is because 'SF fakers' is a problem in your idea of the SF Tag System, not in my idea.

TL;DR In my idea, the SF Tag actually has significance to it. In your idea it does not.
When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails.
Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism
does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect.
(me)
Last edited by HeavyMetalGear#2712 on Feb 18, 2014, 10:39:23 PM
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2ofSpades wrote:
"
HeavyMetalGear wrote:
In short, yes. SF-tagged players would be able to map with non SF-tagged players since my idea does not involve a complete separation between SF-tagged players and non SF-tagged players.


Well, there's no real point to the tag then if SF players are able to still benefit from trading.


I did not say anything about SF-tagged players benefiting from trading in the above quoted from me.

You completely missed the point in what I said. Just because SF-tagged players would be able to participate in maps (not pay a fee through trade to map with other players) does not mean SF-tagged players would benefit from trading.

What I said in my reply means if SF-tagged players want to map or map with other players (whether those players are SF-tagged or not,) they have to 1. map alone or 2. become friends with players willing to run maps for them for free, which can be achieved by joining a Guild that does map runs.

Therefore, attempting to pay a fee through trading (or trading at all) to do map runs results in the loss of your SF Tag.
When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails.
Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism
does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect.
(me)
Last edited by HeavyMetalGear#2712 on Feb 18, 2014, 11:32:19 PM
Sup HeavyMetalGear,

Yeah, my ideas would allow for SF fakers.
Spoiler
Basically, under my ideas, if a character were to get completely naked, they would be returned to a SF state. However, equipping just one piece of non SF gear, no matter if it is just a flask, would remove their tag. So, the tag would not be as meaningful as being able to say, run maps with a SF tag or win PVP matches with a SF tag. Doing these things would indicate a much higher level of accomplishment of SF play.
I want to try to briefly address one issue regarding your ideas and one issue regarding a SF tag system overall:

1)
Spoiler
You mentioned much earlier in this thread that SF tagged players would be able to exchange items with other SF tagged players. While I support this scenario being possible, I don't support players being able to maintain SF tags if they are trading with other SF players. If you receive an item in trade, regardless of where it comes from (SF player or not), it was not found by you, therefore you cannot be SF tagged if you carry/use items received.
2)
Spoiler
Neither of our ideas have addressed this critical issue: party play. If I am playing solo, wearing only SF gear, and I loot an Alpha's Howl, that Howl is without a doubt a SF item. If I am playing SF with a friend, and we both team up, and I get allocated an Alpha's Howl, is the Howl still SF? I mean, I participated in the battle to get it (hopefully), but I still had help in getting it. It is very possible, that I would not have obtained the Howl on my own. Now, expand this scenario to the extreme, and imagine a decent, but not that well geared, SF player partying up with a high level non SF player who clears maps like no one's business. These two players begin to run level 72 maps together, and the mediocre SF player gains access to much more/better loot than would be possible through solo SF play alone. Can anything looted by the SF player during this party play really be considered SF? There is no way in heck that this self-finder could have run the level 72 maps on his/her own, hence he/she could not have acquired the items that he/she did acquire through party mapping on his/her own. I am beginning to think that gear can only truly be considered SF if it is 1) Found during solo play, and 2) Found while only wearing SF gear. Allowing it to be any other way would allow for exploitation.
TY to those who called me out on my BS on these forums. There is no benefit to being so selfish as to fail to acknowledge others' differing beliefs of what "should be" or believe your own opinions so supreme as to be factual and thus dismiss others' opinions as being somehow a lie or delusional.
"
HeavyMetalGear wrote:
"
2ofSpades wrote:
"
HeavyMetalGear wrote:
In short, yes. SF-tagged players would be able to map with non SF-tagged players since my idea does not involve a complete separation between SF-tagged players and non SF-tagged players.


Well, there's no real point to the tag then if SF players are able to still benefit from trading.


I did not say anything about SF-tagged players benefiting from trading in the above quoted from me.


So a SF player using possible traded resources, used for the map or the map itself, isn't benefiting from trade?

There are so many different ways to abuse this system. Thus there is no need for a SF tag seeing as any one of the tagged players could be using other non-sf accounts to fuel their map pool.
Last edited by 2ofSpades#4172 on Feb 18, 2014, 11:37:59 PM
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Perfect_Black wrote:
Sup HeavyMetalGear,

Yeah, my ideas would allow for SF fakers.
Spoiler
Basically, under my ideas, if a character were to get completely naked, they would be returned to a SF state. However, equipping just one piece of non SF gear, no matter if it is just a flask, would remove their tag. So, the tag would not be as meaningful as being able to say, run maps with a SF tag or win PVP matches with a SF tag. Doing these things would indicate a much higher level of accomplishment of SF play.
Spoiler


I have said and addressed as much I could say and address. Even if this SF Tag idea doesn't go over so well with the developers, the discussion has been good, and I really appreciate you and everyone else weighing in on the SF Tag idea in my OP.

"
Perfect_Black wrote:
I want to try to briefly address one issue regarding your ideas and one issue regarding a SF tag system overall:


1)
Spoiler
You mentioned much earlier in this thread that SF tagged players would be able to exchange items with other SF tagged players. While I support this scenario being possible, I don't support players being able to maintain SF tags if they are trading with other SF players. If you receive an item in trade, regardless of where it comes from (SF player or not), it was not found by you, therefore you cannot be SF tagged if you carry/use items received.


That was much earlier in my thread, and as the beginning of my OP states, "Updated as of 1/13/2014 - Earlier comments composed by me and others may be irrelevant to the current OP."

Therefore, what you're reading from earlier does not pertain to the current OP or my latest ideas since trading in any way, shape, or form results in the loss of your SF Tag.

2)
Spoiler
Neither of our ideas have addressed this critical issue: party play. If I am playing solo, wearing only SF gear, and I loot an Alpha's Howl, that Howl is without a doubt a SF item. If I am playing SF with a friend, and we both team up, and I get allocated an Alpha's Howl, is the Howl still SF? I mean, I participated in the battle to get it (hopefully), but I still had help in getting it. It is very possible, that I would not have obtained the Howl on my own. Now, expand this scenario to the extreme, and imagine a decent, but not that well geared, SF player partying up with a high level non SF player who clears maps like no one's business. These two players begin to run level 72 maps together, and the mediocre SF player gains access to much more/better loot than would be possible through solo SF play alone. Can anything looted by the SF player during this party play really be considered SF? There is no way in heck that this self-finder could have run the level 72 maps on his/her own, hence he/she could not have acquired the items that he/she did acquire through party mapping on his/her own. I am beginning to think that gear can only truly be considered SF if it is 1) Found during solo play, and 2) Found while only wearing SF gear. Allowing it to be any other way would allow for exploitation.


This was discussed just recently in a private message between you and I, and to quote my exact response here from me to you in that message, it reads:

"
HeavyMetalGear wrote:
I know what you mean by piggy-backing items, but more than not, SF-tagged players and non SF-tagged players when partied together would both be contributing to damage output, IIR, IIQ, and assistance on the battlefield in which everyone getting their fair share of items is justifiable.

And if you go back to my OP and open up one of the spoilers, it says:

"Dropped items from bosses and normal enemies is anyone’s to grab. There is no SF-tag-only drops from bosses or normal enemies. How can items be SF-tagged if the items have not been tagged yet by players with SF tags? Bosses / enemies have no reason to SF Tag drops."

followed by:

"Then again, if the true FIX here is to have enemies / bosses drop SF-tagged items for SF-tagged players only, it would FIX the problem, but this would probably require a lot of programming."

Furthermore, IF the above is viable for a certain FIX, then that would mean SF-tagged items would need to be visible only to SF-tagged players when they drop."

P.S. While I understand my original idea of SF tags in my OP is not completely flawless, it's all I could come up with if ever there is to be SF in PoE.
When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails.
Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism
does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect.
(me)
Last edited by HeavyMetalGear#2712 on Feb 18, 2014, 11:50:55 PM
"
2ofSpades wrote:
So a SF player using possible traded resources, used for the map or the map itself, isn't benefiting from trade?

There are so many different ways to abuse this system. Thus there is no need for a SF tag seeing as any one of the tagged players could be using other non-sf accounts to fuel their map pool.


I advise you read my OP more thoroughly since you don't understand the SF Tag System.

There is no 'possible traded resources' about it regarding SF-tagged players since if SF-tagged players trade other players in any way, shape, or form they lose their SF Tag as a result.

To emphasize more, the SF Tag idea in the OP allows trading, yes, but if you trade you are permanently no longer considered SF anymore on your character since at that point, for lack of better way to put it, you have violated the code of Self-Found. Unless you create a new character, you are forever without a SF Tag on any character(s) you have that has violated the SF code.

Unless I'm missing something here, please be more specific.

P.S. Granted you read my entire OP and the spoiler titled 'NEW / Important SF Tag Notes (how it works) Updated 1/17/2014,' please, let me hear about these many abuses you have in mind regarding the SF Tag System.

If you cannot get passed your second finger regarding abuses (whether this SF Tag System is implemented or not,) then I must have done an exceptional job by addressing all possible exploits.
When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails.
Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism
does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect.
(me)
Last edited by HeavyMetalGear#2712 on Feb 19, 2014, 12:16:09 AM
"
2ofSpades wrote:
So a SF player using possible traded resources, used for the map or the map itself, isn't benefiting from trade?

There are so many different ways to abuse this system. Thus there is no need for a SF tag seeing as any one of the tagged players could be using other non-sf accounts to fuel their map pool.
Spoiler
I have to chime in on this with my opinion.

If a map is looted by a player during solo play while wearing SF gear, then that map should be considered SF.

If that map is run solo, by the player who found it, while wearing SF gear, any and all items found within that map should be considered SF.

If that map is run in a party or is run while wearing even just one piece of gear that was not SF, then none of the items found within that map can be considered SF, because of the help that party play provides or the help that non SF items provide (even if just a flask).

If a player receives a map in trade, then that map is obviously not a SF map, thus running it, regardless of running it solo and/or wearing only SF gear, would not yield any SF items, because the map was not originally found by you. The same would go for running someone else's map in a party. It would not be your map, and you would have the party play advantage.

Therefore, the only way to acquire SF items through mapping would be solo running maps that you found during solo play while wearing only SF gear, and you would have to be geared in all SF items to actually loot SF items within the map.

I still don't know what to think about currency items.. They throw a wrench in the whole system within my brain.
A part of me simply thinks that a SF tag system is not even worth it, and anyone who plays primarily or 100% SF should just be proud within themselves for persevering, truly experiencing the game content for what it is (drop rates and all), and not giving in to the temptation of quick item progression.

You can brag, you can lie, but you know the truth, and that perceptually sets you apart from others.

Honestly, I just want GGG crew-members, particularly the upper level executives, to make sure that they are not neglecting solo players at any time, and that they are taking into account the various ways people like to play, and continually balancing around all of them. I have faith, and I like grinding enough to keep fighting this uphill battle that is solo self-found with help from friends on occasion and item/currency liquidation to preserve inventory/stash space or acquire needed currency items for randomizing desires.

Long Live the Exile.
TY to those who called me out on my BS on these forums. There is no benefit to being so selfish as to fail to acknowledge others' differing beliefs of what "should be" or believe your own opinions so supreme as to be factual and thus dismiss others' opinions as being somehow a lie or delusional.
Last edited by Perfect_Black#6704 on Feb 19, 2014, 12:35:21 AM

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