Updated 2/19/2014 Anti-RMT Self-Found Tags for ALL Leagues in All Windows + SF Maps (other details)

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Synopsis wrote:

Edit: I would add, rather than to let's the possibility to trade and when you trade you loose your SF tag, wouldn't it be better to just disable the possibility to trade when you create your char? (you got a panel like in hc for death which say you trading is disabled in this mode)

+1 for this idea

I have actually thought about this, and pondering back and forth in my head whether to update my OP with this idea or not.

I will see what I can do and provide an illustration in my OP of a Enable/Disable Trade Request toggle button.

Thank you for your input.

Sorry if my statement was a little blunt but i'm just so tired of all the achievements and points and titles etc. Started playing on the N64 that had some amazing games. The only incentive to play there was if the game was fun to play. Now games are filled up to the brink with achievements that doesn't do anything. /endrant

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Synopsis wrote:

Simple and good idea, even if i'm not a big supporter of a "self-found league" i can understand the interest of a such thing when you have finished the game a ton of time and you want to change your way to play, this can just be a plus for the game replayability.

Edit : I would add, rather than to let's the possibility to trade and when you trade you loose your SF tag, wouldn't it be better to just disable the possibility to trade when you create your char? (you got a panel like in hc for death which say you trading is disabled in this mode)

+1 for this idea

In response to the bolded line, I say NO. If you were to disable trade upon character creation, that means that when you level up to level X, and you encounter the reality of drop rates, and you have a friend with an item that you could really use, then you are sh*t out of luck. The beauty of a SF tag (imo) is that you can lose it, rather than be forced out of trade FOREVER (haha, sucker).

SF tags are better than bothering with an entire SF league (for a number of logistical reasons that have already been covered), but I still don't like this suggestion for two reasons:

1) If I buy 10 stacks of alterations from someone using my hard-earned chaos, and use those alts to craft a piece of gear, then I am still most arguably a self-found character. This suggestion terminates that possibility, further alienates SF characters from the realm, and gives support to those actually wanting an SF league. Allowing currency trades would give them a reason to interact with others and contribute to the economy.

2) There is nothing to prevent people from abusing the system. Players upon seeing unidentified uniques lying on the ground will be able to "sell" those uniques to "SF" characters by having them drop currency elsewhere or by trading on a different character, and then inviting that person to group and bringing them in. Heck, people could just drop items outside of town that they traded for previously. Are you going to ban partying completely for SF-characters? I guarantee you someone will "trade" to themselves a ton of unique items and then use the 'SF tag' to claim legitimacy within a week of implementation. Abuses like this would destroy the reputation of all SF-goers, anger the actual SF players, and once again, further support the idea of an SF league, where it would be impossible to do this. (Barring the situation where a player uses one SF character's gear and transfers it to another SF character, but then, technically, they were SF in the first place, so it's probably OK)


I might support this suggestion if SF characters had perma-loot on by default, and couldn't ever pick up items allocated to other players (and subsequently couldn't ever pick up items dropped by anyone). Unfortunately, that means that we'd first have to...

A) Completely fix the "item flipping" problem
B) Implement a loot allocation that makes you permanent (and unable to pick up others' items) while not affecting anyone else - the rest of the group could be on FFA for example
C) Develop an algorithm that differentiates between non-currency items and currency items in trade, and makes a check every single time a trade is made with an SF character (even if they don't intend to be SF), thus likely increasing the time it takes to complete a trade once players hit accept.
D) Either hit new players with a strange warning message every time they make a trade while SF (thus naturally pushing them away from trading), or deal with some sort of inevitable backlash that results when an SF player accidentally trades for an item. Under your system, I could troll people by claiming I'm inviting them to guild or friend list, and when they hit accept for the "trade" window instead, *poof*, their tag is gone. Rage. Quit.

And frankly, there are a ton of other things I'd rather the devs spend their time on than this list. So my final conclusion is to drop the idea completely.

It's a neat idea, but I think it has several problems that aren't being addressed.

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Perfect_Black wrote:

I like this idea. I like your simple 'SF' tag graphic too.
I would like to add a little bit to the following statement:

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

However, IF at any time a player accepts a Trade request, their SF Tag is removed from all windows.

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Perfect_Black wrote:

I think this would have to be expanded a bit. What if two people were to exit a town and drop items as a way to trade? There would be no trade request, but items would get exchanged. Also, what if a person accepts a trade with one of his or her characters and moves a received item into the global stash for X league? Would other characters that the person has in X league be able to display a SF tag?

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Perfect_Black wrote:

I don't want to say that a trade request based tag state is overly simple, but I think that it might be. I think a more comprehensive solution could involve adding a new attribute and/or method to items to represent 'has changed accounts'. So, when an item is first picked up, for the first time, then 'has changed accounts' is FALSE. As soon as the item is moved to the inventory/stash/cursor? of a different account, then 'has changed accounts' becomes TRUE. The item would then be tainted in a way. No one could hold it and maintain a SF tag. The internal item state of 'has changed accounts' would always be TRUE after an exchange. Using this kind of item state implementation could allow players to re-acquire their SF tag by getting rid of all items that 'have changed accounts'. Also, this type of implementation could allow for the enforcement of SF tags through the global stash spaces (if one places an item that 'has changed accounts' into the global stash space of X league, then all of his or her other characters within X league could lose their SF tags, and vice versa). However, this idea gets very muddy when it comes to stacked currency items and players being able to know which items of theirs 'have changed accounts'.

The OP has now been updated, and the issue(s) you point out, resolved.

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Perfect_Black wrote:

As blunt as your statement is, it is rather true. The tag might augment some players "e-peens" while being a surprise addition to many other players. At the end of the day, it would just be a tag. No genuine quality of life improvement, I don't think. Also, I could see very OCD players making a sort of meta game of being SF and, in doing so, creating another 'box to check' in terms of finishing the game properly. Worth it?

When it comes to what's worth what or when it comes to the perspective of what truly defines quality of life improvement, that's all subject to opinion regardless what you or I thinks.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but keep in mind my OP is trying to appease those who would see something like SF Tags as a viable alternative to a SFL. Perhaps not to you or me, but to other people they would see it as a quality of life improvement and something that is worthwhile.

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Perfect_Black wrote:

@OP

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

WHY I believe SF Tags are better than an actual Self-Found League:

1. Self-Found players in any league can still be recognized as playing Self-Found.

2. RNG and drop rates will remain unchanged so PoE can continue being the unforgiving game it is in crafting and item finding throughout the world of Wraelclast. (However, I do beg to differ if you know where to go, know what you're doing, know what gear(s) to wear, know how to effectively turn low-end orb currency into high-end, ETC.)

3. The traditional Trading System will still remain in place while other players go on their marry way to play the Self-Found way.

4. My idea with Self-Found Tags vs. the idea of a Self-Found League would require less resources and developer time to make it happen.

5. No other leagues will be more emptied than they already are due to the unnecessary addition of a Self-Found League.

6. My idea for Self-Found Tags is a lot less controversial, and for the most part, will make everyone happy without GGG having to make drastic changes to PoE. GGG KNOWS if they make a Self-Found League there will be no going back once it's put in place, a decision they may regret because it could affect other already-existing leagues in a bad way.

7. Anything you can find that's the complete opposite to WHY I am against a Self-Found League is why I believe Self-Found Tags to be better than a Self-Found League.

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Perfect_Black wrote:

I would like to add one of my own:

8. You would not have to start fresh on a new, separate, world. You could make use of your current self-found items on the existing leagues...

The catch being that all of your items might be considered self-found because retroactively installing SF tags and determining if items have 'changed accounts' could be rather difficult to impossible. So, right out of the gate SF tags would likely be false and misleading for a large number to all of the players.

Nothing is impossible, and I will be addressing the issue you speak of in the OP.

All that has to happen is if a SF-tagged player picks up an item, it then has SF labeled on it within the tooltip. However, if a player doesn't disable Trade Requests upon making a new Character in the League Options Screen (consult the updated OP,) and they pick up items while they're still an SF player, their items will be labaled as SF unless they trade another player.

SF-tagged items would also not be tradable accross accounts in which non-SF-tagged characters cannot pick up OR use SF-tagged gear.

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440Music wrote:

SF tags are better than bothering with an entire SF league (for a number of logistical reasons that have already been covered), but I still don't like this suggestion for two reasons:

1) If I buy 10 stacks of alterations from someone using my hard-earned chaos, and use those alts to craft a piece of gear, then I am still most arguably a self-found character. This suggestion terminates that possibility, further alienates SF characters from the realm, and gives support to those actually wanting an SF league. Allowing currency trades would give them a reason to interact with others and contribute to the economy...

Spoiler

2) There is nothing to prevent people from abusing the system. Players upon seeing unidentified uniques lying on the ground will be able to "sell" those uniques to "SF" characters by having them drop currency elsewhere or by trading on a different character, and then inviting that person to group and bringing them in. Heck, people could just drop items outside of town that they traded for previously. Are you going to ban partying completely for SF-characters? I guarantee you someone will "trade" to themselves a ton of unique items and then use the 'SF tag' to claim legitimacy within a week of implementation. Abuses like this would destroy the reputation of all SF-goers, anger the actual SF players, and once again, further support the idea of an SF league, where it would be impossible to do this. (Barring the situation where a player uses one SF character's gear and transfers it to another SF character, but then, technically, they were SF in the first place, so it's probably OK)


I might support this suggestion if SF characters had perma-loot on by default, and couldn't ever pick up items allocated to other players (and subsequently couldn't ever pick up items dropped by anyone). Unfortunately, that means that we'd first have to...

A) Completely fix the "item flipping" problem
B) Implement a loot allocation that makes you permanent (and unable to pick up others' items) while not affecting anyone else - the rest of the group could be on FFA for example
C) Develop an algorithm that differentiates between non-currency items and currency items in trade, and makes a check every single time a trade is made with an SF character (even if they don't intend to be SF), thus likely increasing the time it takes to complete a trade once players hit accept.
D) Either hit new players with a strange warning message every time they make a trade while SF (thus naturally pushing them away from trading), or deal with some sort of inevitable backlash that results when an SF player accidentally trades for an item. Under your system, I could troll people by claiming I'm inviting them to guild or friend list, and when they hit accept for the "trade" window instead, *poof*, their tag is gone. Rage. Quit.

And frankly, there are a ton of other things I'd rather the devs spend their time on than this list. So my final conclusion is to drop the idea completely.

It's a neat idea, but I think it has several problems that aren't being addressed.

This begs the question: What does it mean to be self-found?

-Never traded through the trade window?
-Never possessed an item that originated from another account?
-Does not currently possess any wearable items that have changed accounts?
-Does not currently possess any wearable or currency items that have changed accounts?
-Does not currently possess any wearable items in inventory, league-global stash, or cursor that have changed accounts?

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danonon wrote:

Sorry if my statement was a little blunt but i'm just so tired of all the achievements and points and titles etc. Started playing on the N64 that had some amazing games. The only incentive to play there was if the game was fun to play. Now games are filled up to the brink with achievements that doesn't do anything./endrant

I understand where you're coming from, and I agree. The mindset of today's gamers are not like those in the past. You cannot expect Path of Exile to be like Mario, Sonic, or any of those other legendary titles because that would mean changing PoE entirely.

Perhaps in counteraction to the issue(s) you speak of, instead of adding just things to achieve in PoE, GGG adding mini games with rewarded prizes could be entertaining. However, that's for another thread for another day.

P.S. The N64 brings back fond memories . . . Can anyone say Zelda?

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Perfect_Black wrote:

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Synopsis wrote:

Simple and good idea, even if i'm not a big supporter of a "self-found league" i can understand the interest of a such thing when you have finished the game a ton of time and you want to change your way to play, this can just be a plus for the game replayability.

Edit: I would add, rather than to let's the possibility to trade and when you trade you loose your SF tag, wouldn't it be better to just disable the possibility to trade when you create your char? (you got a panel like in hc for death which say you trading is disabled in this mode)

+1 for this idea

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

In response to the bolded line, I say NO. If you were to disable trade upon character creation, that means that when you level up to level X, and you encounter the reality of drop rates, and you have a friend with an item that you could really use, then you are sh*t out of luck. The beauty of a SF tag (imo) is that you can lose it, rather than be forced out of trade FOREVER (haha, sucker).

Two different responses like this goes to show how tough it is to come up with an idea that has the best of all worlds. It's really a challenge for me. I am trying to iron it all out.

However, I do kind of agree with Perfect_Black here, and perhaps I shouldn't go against my gut feeling with my original idea. Having it to where players can possibly lose their SF Tag can put players in a tempting situation in which they may sacrifice their SF Tag for an item.

Sounds like fun, but like always opinions differ, unfortunately.

I went back and forth in my head and I am taking back what I said when I said I agreed with Perfect_Black. The only reasons for this is because other players who harass you with Trade Requests can become annoying very quickly.

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440Music wrote:

SF tags are better than bothering with an entire SF league (for a number of logistical reasons that have already been covered), but I still don't like this suggestion for two reasons:

I'm glad you think so, then again, I assure you there's a way around your qualms with my idea.

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440Music wrote:

1) If I buy 10 stacks of alterations from someone using my hard-earned chaos, and use those alts to craft a piece of gear, then I am still most arguably a self-found character. This suggestion terminates that possibility, further alienates SF characters from the realm, and gives support to those actually wanting an SF league. Allowing currency trades would give them a reason to interact with others and contribute to the economy.

That's the whole point is for SF-tagged players to alienate everyone else no matter the league they are playing in. SF strictly means NO trading whatsoever no matter what. There is no cutting corners.

Allowing trading whatsoever with other players for currency or not goes against the rule(s) of what rightly defines Self-Found. If players want to trade in any way, shape, or form, they need not be playing Self-Found.

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440Music wrote:

2) There is nothing to prevent people from abusing the system. Players upon seeing unidentified uniques lying on the ground will be able to "sell" those uniques to "SF" characters by having them drop currency elsewhere or by trading on a different character, and then inviting that person to group and bringing them in. Heck, people could just drop items outside of town that they traded for previously. Are you going to ban partying completely for SF-characters? I guarantee you someone will "trade" to themselves a ton of unique items and then use the 'SF tag' to claim legitimacy within a week of implementation. Abuses like this would destroy the reputation of all SF-goers, anger the actual SF players, and once again, further support the idea of an SF league, where it would be impossible to do this. (Barring the situation where a player uses one SF character's gear and transfers it to another SF character, but then, technically, they were SF in the first place, so it's probably OK)

I am an airport for ideas; they never stop flying in. I appreciate you trying every way you can to find loopholes in my idea, but I assure you I have counteractions and answers in mind that do away with the issues you're talking about.

IF items are picked up in any way, shape, or form by players who are not SF-tagged, and a SF-tagged characters try to pick those items, they cannot do so because the item itself is not SF-tagged (updating my OP soon on this.)

The same goes for if SF-tagged players pick up items. When SF-tagged players picke up items, any item they pick up becomes SF-tagged and cannot be traded to those who do not possess a SF Tag.

Doing away with SF-tagged players partying with players who are not SF-tagged is not the answer.

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440Music wrote:

I might support this suggestion if SF characters had perma-loot on by default, and couldn't ever pick up items allocated to other players (and subsequently couldn't ever pick up items dropped by anyone). Unfortunately, that means that we'd first have to...

A) Completely fix the "item flipping" problem
B) Implement a loot allocation that makes you permanent (and unable to pick up others' items) while not affecting anyone else - the rest of the group could be on FFA for example
C) Develop an algorithm that differentiates between non-currency items and currency items in trade, and makes a check every single time a trade is made with an SF character (even if they don't intend to be SF), thus likely increasing the time it takes to complete a trade once players hit accept.
D) Either hit new players with a strange warning message every time they make a trade while SF (thus naturally pushing them away from trading), or deal with some sort of inevitable backlash that results when an SF player accidentally trades for an item. Under your system, I could troll people by claiming I'm inviting them to guild or friend list, and when they hit accept for the "trade" window instead, *poof*, their tag is gone. Rage. Quit.

And frankly, there are a ton of other things I'd rather the devs spend their time on than this list. So my final conclusion is to drop the idea completely.

It's a neat idea, but I think it has several problems that aren't being addressed.

None of what you say has to happen. I already explained the fixes to the problems.

Problem A is unnecessary. Problem B (not really a problem) can stay the way it is so long as SF players who pick up gear becomes SF-tagged and not tradable to those who are not SF. Why? Because you're in battle contributing to damage output and deserve whatever items drop. If you don't want items allocated to players who are not SF-tagged, then simply don't play in groups. That's the solution to that.

Remember, only when dropped items are touched by a SF-tagged player or a player that is not SF-tagged is the moment those items cannot be traded. At that point, players who are not SF-tagged players can only trade with players without an SF Tag. Attempting to trade with SF-tagged players if they allow Trade or forcibly do it themselves, removes their SF Tag.

Problem C is also unnecessary and is not a sufficient fix.

I also fixed problem D in which players would be able to Enable/Disable Trade Requests upon character creation by toggling a button in the League Options Screen. However, those who do not toggle this button get an SF Tag anyway, however, risk the chance of losing their SF Tag.

Again, thank you for your time and input, but I have this idea covered quite well.