What Iron Reflexes should be

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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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tmaciak wrote:
IR converts garbage into something useful, because as you wrote, evasion is still garbage, especially after life nodes nerf. And I'm saying it from my experience - I have pure evasion character.
Let's take your premise at face value and assume that evasion really is garbage. Is that a justification for IR?


Its not a justification, its a reason why so many opt for it.

And there is nothing wrong with IR. You are not just converting one defense to another, you are completely removing the former defense. (Okay, 5% and 10% with ondars evasion is still fuck all) It would be sick if it were 50% conversion.

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jsn006 wrote:
Your point is massively flawed.


My point is, that I can convert EVA to AR without resorting to trading. But none of trade chat warriors will see a reason for this probably...
Anticipation slowly dissipates...
Iron Reflexes
Evading an attack grants 50% damage mitigation for two attacks rather than 100% damage avoidance for one attack.
Dexterity bonus no longer applies to evasion.
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Xendran wrote:
Iron Reflexes
Evading an attack grants 50% damage mitigation for two attacks rather than 100% damage avoidance for one attack.
Dexterity bonus no longer applies to evasion.


still OP
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jsn006 wrote:
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Xendran wrote:
Iron Reflexes
Evading an attack grants 50% damage mitigation for two attacks rather than 100% damage avoidance for one attack.
Dexterity bonus no longer applies to evasion.


still OP


Thanks for your reasoning and examples.
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Xendran wrote:
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jsn006 wrote:
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Xendran wrote:
Iron Reflexes
Evading an attack grants 50% damage mitigation for two attacks rather than 100% damage avoidance for one attack.
Dexterity bonus no longer applies to evasion.


still OP


Thanks for your reasoning and examples.


if you mean a general additive 50% damage mitigation, it will make anything faceroll

for example vs kole, i need 53k armor to get 68% mitigation vs his crit to about 600 dmg taken, now if this 50% damage mitigation is on top of already existing... heck even if its xve, and keep in mind the example is kole, one of the worst hitters ever ... you see what im getting at?

Pair that with 75% block and spell block, and just some armor, enfeeble, granite, 3 charges endurance, and you have best tank ever. gg!
Last edited by jsn006#2582 on Jul 26, 2013, 7:38:57 AM
1. Good luck getting any meaningful evasion with 53k armor
2. Kole isn't oneshotting you in this situation so it actually nerfs you, because having evasion above 50% would be more powerful WITHOUT reflexes. Say you have 75%ish evasion. Taking 0, 0, 0, 600, 0, 0, 0, 600 with two failed evades is better than taking {300, 300}, {300, 300}, {300, 300}, {600, 600} with one failed evade.
The entropy system ensures that in a situation like this you WILL be better off if your evade is higher than 50%.
3. It counts as an evade, meaning block won't have an effect on the damage taken that's been mitigated by reflexes on either of the hits.
4. 75% spell block + block + enfeeble + granite + charges already tank everything, so nothing would be changing there.

I would like to make one amendment to it however, just to ensure that it functions properly:

Iron Reflexes
Evading an attack grants 50% damage mitigation for two attacks rather than 100% damage avoidance for one attack.
Dexterity bonus no longer applies to evasion.
Evade is rolled before all other defenses. (Just in case it isn't already. This is very important as it's what keeps it in check, as well as makes it interesting when stacking it with block or dodge.)

Evade rolling first prevents you from blocking and dodging 99% of shit and then gettnig a chance to get the rest reduced by half.

It also means that it has some more ways to use it: Do you want overall damage mitigation, or do you want protection against oneshots at the expense of block. Too much evasion with reflexes, and it's going to eat into your block rate by giving you a whole slew of 50% hits, when you could be blocking most of them entirely. It provides safety against giant bursts, but lowers your theoretical overall survivability in exchange.
Last edited by Xendran#1127 on Jul 26, 2013, 8:04:23 AM
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Xendran wrote:
Kole isn't oneshotting you in this situation so it actually nerfs you, because having evasion above 50% would be more powerful WITHOUT reflexes. Say you have 75%ish evasion. Taking 0, 0, 0, 600, 0, 0, 0, 600 with two failed evades is better than taking {300, 300}, {300, 300}, {300, 300}, {600, 600} with one failed evade.


yes you are right

In a comparison of 50k armor, and little to no evasion on one hand vs high evasion, and much lower to no armor on the other hand. With this suggestion of yours for IR...

The numbers would look more like

600, 600, 600, 600, 600, 600, 600 with armor on 7 hits no evade vs 1200,1200 1200,1200 1200,1200 2400 on 7 hits when you evade the first 3 out of 4

Theres a little problem though ... what if when you dont evade, you were supposed to get the 50% reduction?

Mwhuhahahaha >:D

I don't think this thread is complete without me >:)

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/469465/page/4

Relevant to this discussion. I sort of lost who is on what side, but I dislike the IR suggestion I am for IR restoration and doing some proper game design, follow the link. Perhaps like my act 3 feedback far too late to the discussion to safe the facepalm that happened, but I have my own schedule.

You want choice you want build diversity than you must work around the system that is there, the passive tree themes that GGG want. IR in its old form is a perfect interesting choice to pick.

Spoiler
I will take the opportunity to educate you lot once again in the basics of PoE. Roughly following the design phases of the game. Some stuff is guessing work and only the developers can explain and tell us what choices they wanted to make or why. I am aware of some design choices they made on how they want it to work, some of these I think are badly executed and merit some rework, the biggest one is crit and accuracy.

Ozgwald's magnificent Starters guide to Path of Exile:

Each character in PoE is made up out of 3 elements. Three elements which get boosted as they level up. Life, Evasion and mana.

There are 3 colors or 3 nodes on the passive tree. Strength (RED) which gives life, dexterity (GREEN) which gives evasion and intelligence (BLUE) that provides mana.

The color theme is the first thing to make GGG hearts tick and they decide on aliging elements to it. RED will be fire, GREEN will be cold and BLUE will be lightning. Unfortunately both lightning and cold have far more in common with blue than with green and thus we have piety in act 3 stepping on blue circles instead of green circles.

Colors and elements, what a mix up, lets start the clean up:
Spoiler


The first thing that should be done here is that there should be better tri element in this game. Cold should be aligned with blue and green should be teh force of nature.

RED (strength) Life, Raw destruction in the form of Fire, Earthquakes, the Ground erupting, Comets from the sky, strong melee.. it burns the GREEN, but withers in the face of BLUE.

GREEN (dexterity) Evasion, the force of nature. It feeds on BLUE (water, air), but withers in fire (RED). Poison is no longer chaos but the nature damage. Nature damage can slow and root characters in place, effectively replacing the current cold mechanic.

BLUE (intelligence) Mana, the force of magic or the weather elements. Cold, lightning, the wind, the water they are all here and all do magic crit damage (shock, but replacing shock).

Ideally you do have cold, freeze, stun, tumble, root every element their own crit effect, but there is only room for 3. I feel my version makes slightly more sense than the cold, lightning, fire trio we got now. Get back to the BLUE, GREEN and RED and let it present something.

Chaos damage will still exist, but no longer does poison count as chaos damage. Chaos is dark magic, it is vile it corrupts. It is everywhere and nowhere, but poison that is a weapon of nature.


The next issue is the basis of life, evasion and mana. Mana is the only one that does not generate defense, directly. For this something gets added and we get energy shield, it also becomes the wizard and magic combined in intelligence. Strength gets associated with melee damage and receives a melee physical dmg boost, while dexterity becomes ranged and get accuracy. The latter is a new thing that will tie in with evasion. There is a lot going wrong here.

Intelligence: Mana and Energy Shield. It sets-off from strength by making intelligence give %es and making an alien system to life. This is successfully achieved by the gear in the game that give large boosts of raw ES. ES does not protect you from chaos damage unless you have CI. Over-time the alien system is trashed, giving it life regen instead of good passive regen and of course life leech. Chaos resistance is added and chaos damage without this becomes a burden on hybrid builds. Damage comes in the form of crits and no misses.

Strength: The life and melee corner. Life regen, life leech all is in this corner. To mitigate damage elemental resistance is more abundant, you find here elemental adaption and also the strongest armour nodes. The melee physical is an odd-ball directly pushing strength users in one direction. Support gems and a keynode add some flavor to strength, such that the build diversity of the game is kept. Damage comes from large flat hits.

Dexterity: Evasion never sets of as a plausible defense and immediately relies on life. Normal slow regeneration doesn't work due to the nature of evasion and short big boosts work the best, Flasks come to mind but over-time no new flask tiers get added and the system deemed unreliable due insanely high hits. Due to 0 mitigation evasion builds in fact rely more on life than life builds themselves. Accuracy is introduced, which is an odd system related to evasion and which causes offensive gear to become less useful (less damage) while you progress through the game. Damage comes from attack speed, though the accuracy system best scales with crit and crit damage and a mediocre amount of accuracy, due to the nature of the system.

The issues of the tri-factor, mistakes at the core resonating throughout the game:

Spoiler
The first thing that should have been done at the basic level is to split up the game into: Life, Mitigation, Mana.

Life could be supported by evasion. Here one gets high live and bursts of life returned (flasks or something like vaal pact). Heals on cooldown could play a role here too. This area would be the dexterity area and play a link with the force of nature or GREEN. Going in and out of combat dealing, damage over time and dealing quick high damage could be a nice mechanic to build around.

Mitigation or the strength area. Here you find life regeneration and slow but consistent life return mechanics. Physical damage mitigation and elemental damage mitigation even chaos damage mitigation can be brought to high levels while having either a good life or ES base, to do so. Both Life and mitigation are slowly taking form recently, with more life on the right side, however a clear goal currently seems to be lacking.

Mana needs a way to deal with damage. Arctic Armour is the biggest thing to have hit PoE in a long time, but the current mana system is weak and hardly works. If anything this should look like the the witch doctor in diablo 3, but we see a complete failure at achieving the WD system, rather mana leech is seen as the success taking the role of monk/ barbarian/ demon hunter. The only thing looking like a mana pool is life with blood magic. Also arctic armour doesn't cater to all playstyles (mobile, melee heavy burden), which doesn't seem to fit the PoE theme. A consequence of previous design choices, which have to restrict ranged build.


and I am done, maybe will finsish it someday, still got to discuss damage systems, go to the tree lay-out melee vs ranged, build diversity how there are conflicts between these systems etc. etc.

Finally at the end you get at the keynodes like IR. Anyways I wrote what should be done about it in the other topic (link), but really even that suggestion is something questionable after a long list of other changes at the core are needed.

Last edited by Ozgwald#5068 on Jul 26, 2013, 8:53:02 AM
Tweaked in a big way.


Iron Reflexes
Evading an attack grants 50% Less damage taken for two attacks rather than 100% damage avoidance for one attack.
All armour is removed.
Dexterity bonus no longer applies to evasion.
Damage mitigations from evasion will stack with eachother multiplicatively.
Entropy no longer applies to evasion.

This means that with consequtive evades you'll be taking 25% instead of 0% like a regular evade, or 50% like a first mitigation, but the important part comes when you fail an evade: Your previous evade is still in effect, meaning you're gonna get hit for a 50% before you ever get hit for a 100%. This means you can always predict when a oneshot is going to come.

You'll take more damage overall, but less damage at once. This is another reason entropy should be removed, entropy would make it too predictable as to when you're going to lose an evade, and it makes it so that past certain evade numbers you never fail two evades in a row, meaning you never see that 100% damage.


Example:
Last edited by Xendran#1127 on Jul 26, 2013, 6:15:23 PM

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