Debunking the idea that Orbs are in any way superior to Gold

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RodHull wrote:

A well implemented gold system has no more drawbacks than the orbs. All that will happen is the orbs will become like gold. Some will be worthless, some will be the ones everyone wants. I dont see a difference.

The social aspect of trading is more to do with the AH which is a seperate issue entirely and nothing to do with gold/orbs. I also suspect you might be dissapointed cause at some stage I almost guarantee that POE will have some form of AH or board to post trades on, if a game like this becomes successful, even moderately, its ludicrous to expect all trading to be done by spamming chat with linked items. If there were say 250,000 players (which isn't even that many) it would mean nothing ever got sold and most people would just ignore chat to avoid item spam.

AHs are a necessary evil in a large successful game that allows trading/selling. I personally never buy any loot period in loot games though, it defeats the object entirely imho

The advantage with orbs is that they make sense thematically in Wraeclast, whereas gold does not. I for one value the believability of the game world I play in. I agree that gold + gold sinks is functionally very similar to orbs though orbs are bound to be more dynamic.

You are correct in saying that without an auction house you get in-game spam, but on the other hand this encourages players to form exlusive clubs and socities within the game - which opens up for a very interesting end-game where you climb a social ladder.

There are of course many things that can be done to improve upon pioneers such as Diablo 2.

Player moderators

Well tuned auto-muting

Big common areas where exclusive clubs can establish a presence in form of buildings and banners (via microtransactions) and you need the password to enter or be an official member, depending on the rules set by the club.

The auction house could be an integral part of every club, giving players further incentive to come together.

I am not against an auction house as such. People will form one outside of the game if its not available in the game. What I am against is making everything accessible to everyone right from the start. That kills the social aspect of the game.

We are really discussing something that already has been done in real life, this trade system(that dont get me wrong, i like it and works very good with the game) is an old trade system the world had very long time ago, gold, cash and NOW the credit cards, all evolves...

With or without gold, the game will eventualy have an inflation, just get over it people

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TJJ wrote:

"Big awesome quote"

10/10

The big thing that made me fastly grow tired of D3 when I actually did want to like the game. The itemization in the game is a joke compaired to D2 (even before the expansion which improved it) and the economy is not that much better either.

Before I was never exactly "thrilled" about the itemization in PoE, but I can safely say that after playing D3 I look fondly back towards PoE and can't wait for Open beta so I can really get started.

Personally I'd like to see a AH, I think that any trade disparity stems not from gold versus orb currency, but rather from lack of a simpler trading system.

Even when trading is implemented, so you won't have to drop trade, there will still be the hassle of actually trading, finding seller, buyer, agreeing on price, etc.

I'll admit I'm kinda torn though, because trading without AH does have its charm, the cutthroat atmosphere, old school feel. :)

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The advantage with orbs is that they make sense thematically in Wraeclast, whereas gold does not.

I believe I said this myself some pages back... I agree it works in terms of the setting of the game, and its fine the system functions well enough. But the OP is referring to quotes from GGG that suggest this system solves the issues of gold only games. When in fact it doesn't. Thats all he was saying, not that its bad or should be removed or changed.

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yhateful wrote:

Personally I'd like to see a AH, I think that any trade disparity stems not from gold versus orb currency, but rather from lack of a simpler trading system.

Even when trading is implemented, so you won't have to drop trade, there will still be the hassle of actually trading, finding seller, buyer, agreeing on price, etc.

I'll admit I'm kinda torn though, because trading without AH does have its charm, the cutthroat atmosphere, old school feel. :)

I agree that a big cause of the caution towards Orbs is the lack of a fullscale trading-system.

Afair the plan is something very complicated. They are trying to get it running crossplatform on this website and ingame. If they can get such a system running, they will have so many possibilities for making trading unique and the possibility of making trade more intuitive and/or tinkerable is also there!

Untill this system is implemented the trading will be a little lackluster even though a tradescreen is a pretty important improvement.

I've stated my opinion on this a few times before, I think.

I'm of the roughly same opinion as tzaro (although I haven't read everything he said).

However, there are definitely differences between multiple/orbs and universal/gold currencies, the differences just aren't that major or of much importance when the economic system is executed well.

The biggest issue with economy and currency is really the supply and demand, pretty much linked to generation and sinks. Both sides are vulnerable to this, and in nearly identical ways.

The biggest downside to the orb system is that auctions are difficult to do, and trading can be confusing for new and/or casual players.

I don't see the need to chance the orb system to something else, but I definitely do not really think that it's superior.

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WippitGuud wrote:

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with my wife about a trade offer.

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Her: Someone offered me an alchemy orb for a blessed orb. But I don't know if it's worth it.

Me: Are you planning on using the blessed orb?
Her: No
Me: would you use the alchemy obb?
Her: Yes
Me: So then trade.

If you're getting something you want, in exchange for something you not going to use, isn't it a bonus to you?

No, that's a terrible way to look at things.

Think about a real life scenario: Do you have a use for 1 kilogram block of solid gold? or to further my point, do you have a use for 2 kilogram block of palladium or osmium?

How about an MP3 player, some wine/beer, a bicycle, or a tank of gasoline?

While you may have SOME use for a block of metal, it would not be as much as for those other objects unless you were to re-sell the blocks to someone else.

Just because something's useful to you doesn't make it more valuable overall. Value is based on rarity and what OTHER people can make use of, not [just] yourself.

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Though only major orb I think that is missing up near divine level of rareness is a undo orb that undoes the last modification made, 100%, would be a invaluable orb for crafting for exalted.

that's a cool idea. I'm wondering how possible it would be. It would almost certainly require a change in the base system of the game, but I don't think it would have to be a big change. Biggest issue is that it would be changing item data mechanics for the sole purpose of 1 currency item feature though :\

I've played enough MMOs and Diablo-likes to be sure that gold-based economies are almost entirely worthless. Some "old school" or "hardcore" MMOs like Ultima/EVE break what I'm about to say here, a little bit, but even so.

We value dollars/euros/yen/whatever because we value the governments that back them. There is some promise that those governments will exist tomorrow and will uphold their laws that guarantee I can turn in those currencies for items of my desire. This is how the world has less than 30tril physical dollars in circulation, but has over 1000 tril dollars in investment.

In Diablo 3, there is no government that backs gold. Gold in D3 or most MMOs/Diablo-likes, is a player-driven, "invisible-hand" controlled commodity. It is worthless save for some artificial sinks that make it valuable (repairs, respecs, etc.).

For as long as you cannot use gold to purchase things you need (such as equipment or consumables) from NPCs/Vendors, it has no inherent value. Because there is no government back that gold. Saying that by having that gold, you're guaranteed something. In a purely player driven market, this is the exact opposite. Gold can be worthless for purchasing the things you want and doesn't hold its value for very long (inflation causes skyrocketing). And guess what? No successful MMO of any kind is going to let you buy the best gear with gold from NPCs.

It's not that the orb system is "superior" - it just tackles this issue. It gives currency a very tangible use. People yearn for these items to acquire things they want. In effect, orbs are currency. They give us the power to create the items we want.

Gold/money in an MMO is only going to work when you have NPCs that sell you valuable things - that in effect, is like having a government back the gold. It'll always be worth trading gold for those NPC-bought items. From there, player-driven forces can only raise or lower the value of gold so much. As a result, people will value gold and trust it, the economy will be stable and user-friendly.

In a few months D3's economy will be a total mess. As it is, new players are severally disadvantaged/confused by the soaring gold prices of things. They can't exactly compete with chinese gold farmers who drive those costs up rapidly. POE's economy will likely be more stable over the coming months, though there will be inflation of a kind, though there will be player confusion as they adapt to a no-gold system, new players will have a fairer shake than a gold system would provide.

I would rather have money too

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anubite wrote:

Gold/money in an MMO is only going to work when you have NPCs that sell you valuable things

You said a bunch of rather worthless (or maybe even kinda misleading) things. The post can be pretty much summed up by this one accurate sentence.

If PoE was to use gold — guess what the gold sinks would be... NPCs which perform the identical behavior as orbs perform now.

That's the problem with so many games; it's not that they use gold, it's that they have a lack of usefulness of the gold and/or don't make gold properly rare enough or adjust values properly.