Debunking the idea that Orbs are in any way superior to Gold

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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tzaro wrote:

This is flawed logic. You cannot suggest that trading for an item with gold at different than established values equates to someone feeling "ripped off", but then trading orbs with orb currency at different than established values is fine because one player is "perfectly happy".

No, but I can suggest that the second doesn't happen due to the orb system not lending itself to such strictly set "established values". That's the difference. There isn't a set established value (or at least, not as set-in-stone as is common in gold systems), for someone to compare a trade to and feel bad about.

Any time a player can trade something (gold or orbs or kumquats) for something else, and then see another trade they could have taken for the same something from them, there is the potential for regret.

If they trade a regal or a divine or a gcp for some nice item, they can't help but compare the item they got to the next thing someone offers in chat for a divine or a regal or a gcp.

I would trade a GCP for a kumquat, but I may feel regretful if someone was offering a slice of hot pizza for my GCP.

Unless I had scurvy. In that case I would still want the kumquat.

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AgentDave wrote:

If they trade a regal or a divine or a gcp for some nice item, they can't help but compare the item they got to the next thing someone offers in chat for a divine or a regal or a gcp.

Right. But the difference is that any given player may have differing values for the various orbs than the overall community aggregate. One player may want to respec his char so he values Orbs of Regret highly while another player may want to roll his 6-link armor so he values Orbs of Fusing highly. That's Mark's point. Sure these subjective valuations will remain within certain bounds of the aggregate community valuation (as they should) but the subjective valuation allows for more wiggle room than you might assume theoretically.

A single currency (gold) economy has no such subjective valuation. A given item has a set market price. Granted that market price will fluctuate based on supply and demand from one day to the next but it will still always have a set price. As a buyer you can choose to buy at a higher price (for whatever reason: ignorance, expediency, etc) but that doesn't change the fact that you're overpaying for the item itself.

Not only that, but immediate gratification in crafting with the orb system leads to bulk orb purchases and the more u need the less likely one person is to have them all, and if they do will charge a higher convienance exchange rate... 100 gold is 100gold, 100 orbs of regret are worth something different to a player with immediate want/need of them versus one simply collecting slowly through opportunistic trading.

Mark has pointed out the thing I think most people are doing wrong in the current orb currency system. Everyone wants to establish a currency standard. This completely ruins the great barter system that PoE has now. If everyone would stop trying to find a standard worth for everything and just barter like they are supposed to the orbs wouldn't seem so bad compared to gold.

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tpapp157 wrote:

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RodHull wrote:

Any game economy which is based on a system where loot is generated will always inflate and eventually burst. Whether it has orbs, gold or whatever else.

You're missing the beauty of the system though. Assuming you're right and the orb economy drastically inflates and the value of orbs hits rock bottom, players will start using the orbs much more frequently. They would be so cheap and plentiful, why not blow a couple thousand on rolling an ultra item. You see, the economy self regulates that way. If orbs become more valuable as trade currency than consumables, then their use will drop and the economy will inflate.

this is a good post. it works because the currency has intrinsic value, unlike gold. lol @ tzero's LOGIC. The less the orbs are worth, the more people will use them, which slows or stops the inflation. There is a degree of self-regulation that gold can never achieve.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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tzaro wrote:

This is flawed logic. You cannot suggest that trading for an item with gold at different than established values equates to someone feeling "ripped off", but then trading orbs with orb currency at different than established values is fine because one player is "perfectly happy".

No, but I can suggest that the second doesn't happen due to the orb system not lending itself to such strictly set "established values". That's the difference. There isn't a set established value (or at least, not as set-in-stone as is common in gold systems), for someone to compare a trade to and feel bad about.

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TJJ wrote:

There is another aspect that hasn't been touched on so far.

Gold is a homogeneous currency, it hastens trade.
Orbs are a heterogeneous currency, they slow trade.


- The slower the speed of trade (i.e. the rate it takes for an idle item to find a useful purpose), the more storage space is required by traders.

- As storage space is finite(and increasing it generates revenue for GGG), a slow economy will inevitably increase waste.(i.e. items not being picked up, or being vendored for nominal values).

- Knowing the economy is slow and wasteful GGG can tune the loot system to be more generous than it might otherwise be.

- As people play games like PoE for the loot, a generous loot system increases the apparent fun of the game.

- People play games for fun, game succeeds -> more revenue for GGG.


Quizzically Blizzard completely failed to understand this fundamental of economics.
Instead they went the complete opposite of the spectrum, tied every aspect of the game's mechanics to gold and created an online auction house accessible to all.

In so doing they increased the pace of their game's economy by many many factors and devalued the fundamental aspect of the game: loot.


Trade devalues loot, therefore anything that slows down trade (including the use of orbs) is a 'good thing'.

But I am willing to bet that these aspects will be minimized once there is more of a trading system in place. It will increase both the availability of price information, and the ease of trading.

Like I've stated in a dozen other threads by now, many of the effects that the orb currency seems to exhibit are merely due to the lack of a convenient built-in auction-house-like system.

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sparkle wrote:

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tpapp157 wrote:

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RodHull wrote:

Any game economy which is based on a system where loot is generated will always inflate and eventually burst. Whether it has orbs, gold or whatever else.

You're missing the beauty of the system though. Assuming you're right and the orb economy drastically inflates and the value of orbs hits rock bottom, players will start using the orbs much more frequently. They would be so cheap and plentiful, why not blow a couple thousand on rolling an ultra item. You see, the economy self regulates that way. If orbs become more valuable as trade currency than consumables, then their use will drop and the economy will inflate.

this is a good post. it works because the currency has intrinsic value, unlike gold. lol @ tzero's LOGIC. The less the orbs are worth, the more people will use them, which slows or stops the inflation. There is a degree of self-regulation that gold can never achieve.

Sure, lets talk about inflation.

In the scope of system-wide inflation, comparing orb values relative to each other as a measure of inflation is deeply flawed. They are commodities. Orb values relative to other orbs will always fluctuate because they are different goods with different uses. Yes they can self-regulate, because this is how purchasing power works. One orb gains purchasing power when another one falls. Did this affect the system-wide inflation? No, it's completely different.

It's best to measure inflation using a market basket, sort of like the CPI. If we calculated the price of a very rare piece of equipment over time, it's price would continuously inflate with gold in the same manner as it does with orb values. The amount of each type of orb needed to purchase this piece of equipment is bound to fluctuate, since the orbs are commodities themselves-- but those fluctuations are separate from the price variations in the market basket.

So don't confuse the self-regulation of various types of orbs with the value of the market basket. The real indicator of inflation is the monetary supply. Not enough money sinks, and the result is inflation, the concept is as simple as this.

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with my wife about a trade offer.

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Her: Someone offered me an alchemy orb for a blessed orb. But I don't know if it's worth it.

Me: Are you planning on using the blessed orb?

Her: No

Me: would you use the alchemy obb?

Her: Yes

Me: So then trade.

If you're getting something you want, in exchange for something you not going to use, isn't it a bonus to you?

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It's also amusing watching a few of the top-10 on HC offering perceived-higher worth orbs to get wisdom scrolls. When you're in MoC, there's a lot more you want to identify... they're burning through scrolls faster than they can find them.

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tpapp157 wrote:

You're missing the beauty of the system though. Assuming you're right and the orb economy drastically inflates and the value of orbs hits rock bottom, players will start using the orbs much more frequently. They would be so cheap and plentiful, why not blow a couple thousand on rolling an ultra item. You see, the economy self regulates that way. If orbs become more valuable as trade currency than consumables, then their use will drop and the economy will inflate.

Despite what some people think, GGG's orb economy is much more similar to a real world financial system than the gold based economy of other games. In the real world, currency has two sinks: saving and investing (liquid vs illiquid capital). Based on the amount of currency in the economy (dictated by US federal interest rates) one option or the other becomes the more attractive currency sink. Obviously, that's a simplification of the real financial system but the fundamental comparison remains valid.

With respect im not missing anything. Ive seen it in action for many months, Ive seen prices/values for certain orbs change already. I know that the lower level orbs are worthless basically once you hit MOC. Which isn't an issue particularly but its no different to a gold system.

An example being exalted and GCPs are some of the more highly prized orb types, that will always be the case, most of the others will become worthless after a short time of OB.

As for this being like a real world system thats a bit silly. In a real world system money doesn't magically appear. It has a finite limit. It never vanishes from the system it is a part of. Any system like POEs or D3s is totally unrealistic, again not that this is an issue but its not like real life. The US federal interest rates are based on inflation and economic trends (amongst other things) all of which is measure by having a finite limit of currency in the system.

It does happen that some countries create currency out of thin air without anything of value to back that up, and thats when issues arise, like in pre-ww2 germany for instance, or some African countries.

Anyway I digress, its not really different to a well implemented gold system in reality as the OP says, I stand by that. The best economy of any game bar none, is EVE that actually REALLY does work like a real economy. It was even designed by a professor of economics.