This game ruined Diablo 3 for me...

I might be able to overlook Diablo 3's skill system if the graphics were more like PoE's. I feel like I'm playing a dumbed down version of World of Warcraft (WoW is easy enough as it is) when I play Diablo 3...the graphics are more or less the same since it was the same team. The only things I liked graphically in Diablo 3 were the fog and the way points. My male Wizard looks too much like a Blood Elf for my liking.

I just find myself bored in Diablo 3. In PoE, I have 6 characters and have leveled a few of them into the 40's. I don't feel like I'm leveling in PoE, I feel like I'm just playing a game and having fun, the levels just come naturally. In Diablo 3, I'm bored and leveling is a disappointment.

I find that Diablo 3's client isn't optimized very well either. I have a high end system I built myself which includes an i5 2500k and a GTX 590, and I was getting some stuttering in Diablo 3. Nothing major, but I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to performance and I noticed it. And no, it's not my system...I have many other games I play and none have any issues at all, including PoE which I keep maxed out.

Autocthon, try to fix post =), i am all confused when replying to you.

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Autocthon wrote:

You geta new skill/rune/skillslot nearly every level when you play D3. THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING TO TRY. Then once you ht 60 your goal becomes collecting awesome stuff. There is no point in which there isn't something to try out and play around with to decide if you like it. PErsonally I hated D2 after I'd played each class into lategame because having to wait a ridiculous ampount of time to try something new (then having no way to say wow I don;t like that) was a pain in the ass.

Hmm next time read my post good, i really don't want to repeat my self. I get nothing from new lvls, becouse I know what my character will be, and what skills I need. I get runes, and skills that I dont use for my build.

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Autocthon wrote:

1) You get a skill/rune/slot every level in D3. That's plenty reward for leveling up.

2) You can still choose freely what you want. The fact that you don't have to put point into a skill in order to keep it relevant was a mechanic that has sucked since its release. It constreicts creativity and the layout of skill trees TAXED you on your way to getting the skills you really wanted.

3) There are more choices in skills in D3 than there are in D3. You have 6 slots to fill, and each one has at minimum 24 skill choices after runes. And never once will you be penalized when you dislike a skill. Don;t like it? Don;t use it.

4) There are far more unique builds in D3 than D2. In D2 most lower level abilities are not endgame viable unless you use synergy cheese (which are a RECENT invention). In D2 using any build that relies on more than 4 active skills is not only unwieldy it is limited by skill points severely. In D2 the skill system is an enemy you have to conquer to create a viable build, and in order to do well you HAVE to rely on only a handful of skills.

1. Its not a reword becouse I know what I gona use.
2. Ummm, about what are we talking here? Im not talking about d2, but d3 with points, not skill trees. You cant chose free, you know it. You can have 6 skills and all are maxed. Thats not freedom.
3. Again, im not talking about d2 =). D3 with skill point has more uniq builds than d3 without skill points.
4. Same as 3

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Autocthon wrote:

These builds where yo spread out your skills are only viable in a HANDFUL of cases and only with abilities with % scaling or abilities related to weapons. D3 decided to ditch a system that was more spreadsheet than fun and instread reward you for leveling up with an ever increasing array of abilities and ways to kit yourself unique compared to any other player. There are AT MINIMUM 24^6 skill layouts for any class. Before passives which multiply that even FURTHER (roughly by 16^3). In D2 there were roughly 7 endgame viable spels for sraight 20's and maybe certain kits (mostly Necro/Barb/Druid/Paladin) could spread their points out further depending on how much they wanted to use their weapons. I've played D2 since its RELEASE I know the mechanics. On the other hand you seem to have played D3 for ten minutes or not at all.

This as you said, comes from more balanced skills and more skills, not from removing of points. But i dont want to talk about d2. D3 has more builds than d2 becouse of 5 time more skills, and balance, not becouse of removing of skill points. But it seems that you didn't read my previous post very good, so you assume that I talk about d2.

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Autocthon wrote:

D2 only gained respecs like 4 months ago. And you have to jump through hoops if you want to respec more than three times. If you can respec though why do skill points matter? D3 accomplishes the SAME THING with fewer moving parts therefore allowing a wider degree of balance.

Not talking about d2

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Autocthon wrote:

1) 24^6 minimum builds for any class. Minimum before passives and assuming only 24 skills per class. Most classes have 30 IIRC

2) Skill points were a punishment for not knowing what exactly you wanted until patch 1.13

3) Stats never mattered for 90% of D2 players becvase they realized how terrible Str/Dex/Energy were compared to having three times the HP. Items give you all the stats you needed.

1) agree, but with skill points, it will be even more. 20*24^6. I suck at math.
2) agree if there is no respect, but there is
3) hmm again talk about d2. Items giving stats is not same as choosing when you lvl. You went for health becouse others where not usful for you. If they where usful you would take diferent things, the problems is balance.

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Autocthon wrote:

Removing skill points let them expand viable options. You want to play a Wizard in melee? They gave you skills in your kit and made it so you can equip the weapons/armor to make it work. Will you be as good as a Barb? Of course not the melee classes get 30% base damage reduction. But you have more tools than the Sorc ever had to pull it off.

Here your wrong. Removing skill points dont expand viable options, and never will. Skill points add to less viable builds, but still viable.

A lot of thing you compare to d2, BUT I COMPARE D3 WITH SKILL POINTS TO D3 WITH NO SKILL POINTS.

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miljan wrote:

) agree, but with skill points, it will be even more. 20*24^6. I suck at math.

Not really. If you have 20 levels of a skill you still only count it once. It would be foolish to count every level as a seperate skill.

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Ragura wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

The customizing options in D3 are also far deeper than D2 simply because you care more about gear.

This is untrue in my opinion and also one of the biggest turn offs of D3 for me.
In D2, PoE, Titan Quest, you name it, there are SO many more affixes that determine the sort of gear you'll get it's not even funny anymore. If you've played the D3 beta, you'll notice 75% of the items that drop have extra XP, gold, health globes on kill and the other 25% consists of extra damage (real build changer!) or thorns.

The problem for me is D3's customization looks as if it's catered to children or non-gamers. There's a reason the DPS and defense number on the item tooltips are huge: it's because this is the number that will matter most 95% of the time. All the rest on the item looks as if it will not be a build changer. In my ARPGs I like it when item choice is dictated by build choice, or in other words, they support each other to form a whole.

If I can pick any combination of 6 skills in D3 to create a somewhat viable build, I at LEAST want it to mean that you need at least 2-3 different item sets to support those builds. But that goes against Blizzard's new ideology where you're supposed to be able to click randomly on the UI and get a viable build and the items will support that no matter what.

Just my 2 cents, I'm not hating on D3, I do feel the game has a lot of polish and looks like it's achieved what it wanted to achieve. That goal is just not the one I personally wanted to see achieved.

So I'm sticking with PoE, at least until I get to try other ARPGs that have yet to come out :)

this is not a matter of opinion its fact D3 has more customization. the main difference from what say PoE offers is that instead of having limitless options at the beginning and later being pigeon holed into only really 1 choice(even if it sucks) in D3 you start out with limited options and as you progress and level more more options becomes available until there are thousands of potential character builds.

I know that by judging it from the beta it seems limited and it is in the beginning buts thats on purpose. but what people fail to understand is that by the time your in your 20s your going to have a lot to choose from and by the time your 60 your mind will be blown.

I know not everyone will like this but its silly to argue that they killed customization because its factually untrue.

theres a lot of speculation there also you have no idea if one set of gear will be good for all skills,which it wont because gear will boost certain skills from what i have read so it will be nessisary to farm more than one set. so all your problems are easily fixed with knowledge of the game. instead of knee jerk reactions from a couple hours with the beta.

really your judging the game from the first 1\3 of the first act its like your purposely ignoring the whole rest of the game to support these ridiculous claims

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thepmrc wrote:

*VOMITS*

Stating there are multiple builds per class is not true. There is one build for each class and the game builds it for you. You can change around the skills all you want, but its the same.

With that logic: There was one build for each class in D2 changing around what skills you put points into doesn't mean that you've changed the build provided for you.

Each player can freely customize their kit within the paramaters given them just like in D2. And they can do so without having to deal with dead end skills or traps.

By definition having to choose which skills to put in which slots (and you can put ANY SKILL IN ANY HOTKEY) means you can change your kit. Your kit is your build.

I'll give yo ua hint: PoE DOES THE EXACT SAME THINGS WITH SKILLS. The only difference is that they provide every skil to ever class and you "customize your kit" by using the sphere grid.

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Sickness wrote:

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miljan wrote:

) agree, but with skill points, it will be even more. 20*24^6. I suck at math.

Not really. If you have 20 levels of a skill you still only count it once. It would be foolish to count every level as a seperate skill.

You can have more thasn 6 active skill, but less powerful. Its not 20*, but it is higher for shure than current version, a lot higher.

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Autocthon wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

*VOMITS*

Stating there are multiple builds per class is not true. There is one build for each class and the game builds it for you. You can change around the skills all you want, but its the same.

With that logic: There was one build for each class in D2 changing around what skills you put points into doesn't mean that you've changed the build provided for you.

Each player can freely customize their kit within the paramaters given them just like in D2. And they can do so without having to deal with dead end skills or traps.

By definition having to choose which skills to put in which slots (and you can put ANY SKILL IN ANY HOTKEY) means you can change your kit. Your kit is your build.

I'll give yo ua hint: PoE DOES THE EXACT SAME THINGS WITH SKILLS. The only difference is that they provide every skil to ever class and you "customize your kit" by using the sphere grid.

Its not the same. You cant have all skill in PoE, you need first to get them, and even if you get them, they will be low lvl, and not as powerful as skills you used, so its not the same.

Also he is corect a little. You have all skils that you can change when ever you want where ever you want. It has positiv and negative things.

Edit: also I dont like skills in PoE =)

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miljan wrote:

Hmm next time read my post good, i really don't want to repeat my self. I get nothing from new lvls, becouse I know what my character will be, and what skills I need. I get runes, and skills that I dont use for my build.

So basicaly once you know what you want then it's the exact same ting between having skill points and not having them. Jumping through hoops to set up viable kits does not amke the fact that you've decided on a kit change.

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1. Its not a reword becouse I know what I gona use.
2. Ummm, about what are we talking here? Im not talking about d2, but d3 with points, not skill trees. You cant chose free, you know it. You can have 6 skills and all are maxed. Thats not freedom.
3. Again, im not talking about d2 =). D3 with skill point has more uniq builds than d3 without skill points.
4. Same as 3

1) You know what you're gonna use whether you have skill points or not. So therefore skill points aren't a reward either.

2) D2 is D3 with skill points. Or rather D3 is D2 without skill points. Same system, same basic class paradigms same roles, same style. One ARPG is generally equivalent to another.

3) D3 with skill points is the same as D3 without skill points. Do you wanna know why? BEcause adding those skill points adds moving parts. More moving parts = harder to balance = less options for viable builds. If you do not understand that you REALLY need to stop and look at viable builds in D2 again. There were roughly 4 for each class on average that actually got used and EVERY SINGLE ONE wa s a gimmick. Using ANY OTHER BUILD is just making the game harder for yourself.

4) I deleted my quote so I don't even remember what the number four was. Either way you're wrong due to some flaw in your logic or on oversight in your understanding of how the system by definition must work.

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This as you said, comes from more balanced skills and more skills, not from removing of points. But i dont want to talk about d2. D3 has more builds than d2 becouse of 5 time more skills, and balance, not becouse of removing of skill points. But it seems that you didn't read my previous post very good, so you assume that I talk about d2.

You apparently do not understand. REMOVING SKILL POINTS IS WHAT ALLOWED THEM TO FIND BALANNCE. Skil points are in 99% of cases a hurdle that developers must overcome to balance the game. Point systems add moving parts which makes balancing harder because it causes a dynamic range within which something operates which allows for non-choices and trap choices. Which is why they removed skill point systems in the first place.

BTW PoE doesn't use a skill point system. They use a mecanics pool system (which balances OP stuff by making it an oppurtunity cost). Skill points ala D2 or dnd 3.5 inherently do not have oppurtunity cost. Rather the game assumes that you will have a certain "pool" of points spent in a certain way (specializing one spell for instance and most spells are balanced for "20 points" in such systems) and not meeting that quota is basically fucking yourself over. That is why "jack of all trades" skill sets never work in skill point systems. Ever.

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Not talking about d2

D2 is the only comparable baseline as it is the only Diablo game to use skill points. It is impossible to compare "D3 without skill points" to "D3 with" because (now get this) D3 HAS NEVER HAD SKILL POINTS.

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1) agree, but with skill points, it will be even more. 20*24^6. I suck at math.
2) agree if there is no respect, but there is
3) hmm again talk about d2. Items giving stats is not same as choosing when you lvl. You went for health becouse others where not usful for you. If they where usful you would take diferent things, the problems is balance.

1) And since the game will by definition be balanced for you putting all 20 points into the skills you use only 24^6 would be viable. Maybe a couple more if someone finds a broken skill. (though the occasional game is balanced around "15" instead if you're lucky)

2) There was no respec in D2 until recently because skill point systems are not designed around respecs, and lose al meaning in a game wherein you can respec whenever you want. That is why MoP is dropping the talent point system and opting for a more streamlined version. In fact if they aded a skill point system to D3 that means you'd just be moving more points when you want to change your kit that is just a waste of time.

3) In D3 your equipment is supposed to be your main customization. Your kit first then the TRUE customization will be finding the perfect set to support your kit. ARPGs are AL ABOUT THE LOOT. More design space for loot is a good thing. The reaosn players spamed vitality in D2 and single skill builds in D2 was the fact that anything else was subpar and blizzard has tried for like a decade to make other options more attractive. Guess what, they failed.

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Here your wrong. Removing skill points dont expand viable options, and never will. Skill points add to less viable builds, but still viable.

Skill points by definition are balanced at maximum points in a skill or near maximum. This means that they NEVER introduce additional viable builds that simply having the skills wouldn't do unless there is a broken skill. See WoW and D2. Poster childs for skill points, both are ocked into cookie cutter builds being the only viable builds. Same goes for TQ to a large extent but they mitigated it a bit by giving a degree of itemization room.

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A lot of thing you compare to d2, BUT I COMPARE D3 WITH SKILL POINTS TO D3 WITH NO SKILL POINTS.

There is no D3 with skill points to compare to. There is only D3 as is. If beta had tested skill points you could go ahead and compare. But EVERY skill point system ever introduced has had FAR MORE trap builds than actually viable builds. Go play some DnD 3.5, or older WoW, or D2 and maybe you'll understand.

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miljan wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

*VOMITS*

Stating there are multiple builds per class is not true. There is one build for each class and the game builds it for you. You can change around the skills all you want, but its the same.

With that logic: There was one build for each class in D2 changing around what skills you put points into doesn't mean that you've changed the build provided for you.

Each player can freely customize their kit within the paramaters given them just like in D2. And they can do so without having to deal with dead end skills or traps.

By definition having to choose which skills to put in which slots (and you can put ANY SKILL IN ANY HOTKEY) means you can change your kit. Your kit is your build.

I'll give yo ua hint: PoE DOES THE EXACT SAME THINGS WITH SKILLS. The only difference is that they provide every skil to ever class and you "customize your kit" by using the sphere grid.

Its not the same. You cant have all skill in PoE, you need first to get them, and even if you get them, they will be low lvl, and not as powerful as skills you used, so its not the same.

Also he is corect a little. You have all skils that you can change when ever you want where ever you want. It has positiv and negative things.

Edit: also I dont like skills in PoE =)

There is no functional difference between the way PoE works assuming a character has access to all skill gems and is willing to take the time to max them and the way D3 works. None from a skill side.

The only difference is the presence of the sphere grid.

PoE is designed to make you want to spend time to entice you into using a cash shop at some point. D3 is designed to give you what you want to play with so that you can have fun with your friends. The differences in the skill system are only a matter of timescale. Saying there's difference is roughly akin to saying playing there's a difference between attending driver's ed and waiting until you're 18. The end result is roughly the same (you got a car)

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Autocthon wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

*VOMITS*

Stating there are multiple builds per class is not true. There is one build for each class and the game builds it for you. You can change around the skills all you want, but its the same.

With that logic: There was one build for each class in D2 changing around what skills you put points into doesn't mean that you've changed the build provided for you.

Each player can freely customize their kit within the paramaters given them just like in D2. And they can do so without having to deal with dead end skills or traps.

By definition having to choose which skills to put in which slots (and you can put ANY SKILL IN ANY HOTKEY) means you can change your kit. Your kit is your build.

I'll give yo ua hint: PoE DOES THE EXACT SAME THINGS WITH SKILLS. The only difference is that they provide every skil to ever class and you "customize your kit" by using the sphere grid.

and they also provide ways to augment those skills with meaningful character choices via the passive skill tree. Gear went a long way in D2 LOD in expanding build possibility and D3 may offer that in the future. Being able to allocate your own stat points gave you the feeling that you were actually choosing the direction your character went rather than the game forcing you in one direction. Sure choosing a max hp build vs max block build wasn't game breaking but at least it gave control to the player. Why not build in a botting feature too? It already builds my character for me why not play it for me too?

In D2 I would have to choose which skills to maximize in potential just like in poe. In D3 the skill is what it is. That is why I say there is no customization, because there is not any customization. I choose a skill, I get that skill, end of story. If I want to augment that skill or build around it in some way Im SOL because the character development lacks any depth. I hope this changes as I am a huge fan of the Diablo franchise, but I also like games that are developed for adults not children. As I see it D3 is geared more for a 5 year old than a Diablo Vet and it makes me a very sad panda.