So are you going to continue the trend of no legacy items?

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

"

StDrakeX wrote:

"

Antnee wrote:

So what gives?

Shit balance philosophy with no vision.

nah guys, think about it, does legacy mjolner cause massive balance issues and destroy perceived high end build diversity in standard? No. Would a legacy Voltaxic? Yes, big time.


I know people are upset cause they have voltaxics, but anyone slamming this decision needs to take a step back and look at the game, understand what drives the build metas, the markets, the continued interest in the game from a large group of players. Legacy chaos conversion would be horrible for standard, it would be utterly cancerous and lock a broken, diversity crippling meta into prime position forever, and it would all revolve around legacy uniques. It would destroy that league, if ppl cant see that then.. well sry, but trust me its a thing and they could not allow it to happen under any circumstance.

From my point of view, I think that they have a few options:

1) They can go with better reflect (heck I would take even chaos reflect at a lower rate that the ele/phys), if they intend to keep it as anti-glass canon builds;

2) They can take double dipping in serious (and pay more attention to the poison change which introduced the double dipping power creep, there were times pre-2.0 when bleeding/chaos damage/poison were not popular, but they actually have to balance this interaction better);

3) Take a global "nerf" approach regarding chaos damage, but they shouldn't scale it variably in regard to the legacy CD daggers for example - they should keep their stance like in Voltaxic case and "nerf" them to the same level as regular CD (if they are serious regarding the meta change);

4) Take a global "nerf" approach regarding chaos damage, keeping the legacy CD as they are now.

I really dislike their lack of communication regarding the direction the game is facing, and I would like to quote ScrotieMcB:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

I prefer words.

Personally, I wouldn't really be against the consistent strategy of nerfing the original versions of items such that legacies didn't exist. I also wouldn't be against the consistent strategy of *not* nerfing items, creating legacy versions (although I'd prefer it if pretentions of "permanent league balance" were then dropped, and the unnerfed version made dropable in perm leagues with the nerfed version as a temp-league exclusive).

What I really cannot understand is the mixing of these two strategies. When the nerf comes, will your items be legacy gold or worthless? Who knows?

Whichever of the two, GGG pisses since people off. But when GGG picks both, well, that just feels like trolling.

Please GGG take a stance and just keep to it (I am and probably will still enjoy Path Of Exile, but you just need to be more open regarding the changes)...

Well its like chris said in the podcast.. People are taking a risk when they assume something thats being changed is going to create a legacy version. People went out a bought a bunch of Bino's when it was about to be nerfed and it turned into a retro nerf.. All those people lost out too. Yet in that very same patch all the people who bought up Consumings got a legacy hit. Ofcourse NOW that is being hit this time around with this retro nerf. Same with people that assumed the Acuity nerf was going to create legacy. Its ALL a Gamble.

I guess in the end GGG want this unsure gamble of sorts when it comes to adjusting items. That way you can go out a buy items up you think is about to be adjusted and when they get adjusted you MIGHT hit the jackpot with it going legacy or you might just as well BUST because its a retro nerf.

One thing is for sure theres nothing at this point thats consistent about what does or does not go legacy now. Its completely up to GGG which way they go with nerfs. And people may go out and profit or they may go out and lose. Its all a gamble i guess.

"

Demonoz wrote:

Well its like chris said in the podcast.. People are taking a risk when they assume something thats being changed is going to create a legacy version. People went out a bought a bunch of Bino's when it was about to be nerfed and it turned into a retro nerf.. All those people lost out too. Yet in that very same patch all the people who bought up Consumings got a legacy hit. Ofcourse NOW that is being hit this time around with this retro nerf. Same with people that assumed the Acuity nerf was going to create legacy. Its ALL a Gamble.

You are like everyone did that. I did nothing of listed. I didn't buy or sell any of listed items. Even knowing that someone presumably bought multiple Voltaxics in order to get rich means nothing to me. It wont help me nor hurt me.

Seeing people to be happy when someone lose wealth by risky investment or angry when he gets rich by such investment makes me sad. I'm not even seeking such info. Hell this game is damn ARPG not Dota. It feels extremely punishing when in farm oriented game you finally finished your farm and buy something and then your gear is made worthless in upcoming patch just because is was abused by someone else in not related build.

"

Diphal wrote:

"

Demonoz wrote:

Well its like chris said in the podcast.. People are taking a risk when they assume something thats being changed is going to create a legacy version. People went out a bought a bunch of Bino's when it was about to be nerfed and it turned into a retro nerf.. All those people lost out too. Yet in that very same patch all the people who bought up Consumings got a legacy hit. Ofcourse NOW that is being hit this time around with this retro nerf. Same with people that assumed the Acuity nerf was going to create legacy. Its ALL a Gamble.

You are like everyone would do that. I did nothing and didn't buy or sell any of listed items. Even knowing that someon presumably bought multiple Voltaxics in order to get rich means nothing to me. It wont help me nor hurt me.

Seeing people to be happy when someone lose wealth by risky investment or angry when he gets rich by such investment makes me sad. I'm not even seeking such info. Hell this game is damn ARPG not Dota. It feels extremely punishing when in farm oriented game you finally finished your farm and buy something and then your gear is made worthless in upcoming patch just because is was abused by someone else in not related build.

Whoa.. Wait a min now.. No one said a word about being happy about people losing wealth or getting screwed here. All im saying here is what Chris himself said when he was instantly asked why these items are not going legacy and that many people have been buying them up. Chris's instant answer was thats the risk they took.

And as far as that goes im with you on this. I mean im not someone who goes out a tries to guess the market. However i was of the assumption that Legacy Items was kinda something players who continuously play without breaks collecting items all the time was kinda their treat for not taking breaks. I mean ive ended up with a few legacy items just from owning a few once they went legacy. Just like i own 4 Consuming Daggers ALL found between Dark Shrines and Talisman i believe (Cant remember if they were in game for WB/Tempest) Which once i heard they were going legacy this last patch i divined the shit out of them and got 3 out of 4 to hit 60% spell. Now i guess they will get nerfed along with the others. Which is even more odd to me that they will now adjust an already legacy item? How exactly is that going to work? People are assuming its going to be 45% if already legacy but at this point im going to assume nothing and just wait and see.. Im not getting my hopes up that my legacy daggers wont be 30% after its all said and done. So all those divines and thinking i finally had something to hold onto and sale later once the prices were higher and i wanted to buy something is gone for me as well.

Thus why i said its all a gamble and theres no real way to ever know how they are going to handle adjustments at this point. This also says the me theres no real point in playing standard only either because you never know whats going to get nerfed and since already legacy items can get adjusted now i dont think anything is really safe now. But at the same time i cant be upset like alot of people are.. But thats because i cant really allow myself to get upset about something i have absolutely no control over now can i? What good does it do? Nothing! All i can do as well as you is learn from it.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

From my point of view, I think that they have a few options:

1) They can go with better reflect (heck I would take even chaos reflect at a lower rate that the ele/phys), if they intend to keep it as anti-glass canon builds;

2) They can take double dipping in serious (and pay more attention to the poison change which introduced the double dipping power creep, there were times pre-2.0 when bleeding/chaos damage/poison were not popular, but they actually have to balance this interaction better);

3) Take a global "nerf" approach regarding chaos damage, but they shouldn't scale it variably in regard to the legacy CD daggers for example - they should keep their stance like in Voltaxic case and "nerf" them to the same level as regular CD (if they are serious regarding the meta change);

4) Take a global "nerf" approach regarding chaos damage, keeping the legacy CD as they are now.

I really dislike their lack of communication regarding the direction the game is facing,

I know what you are saying, Im sure theres people at GGG who agree. Heres what you have to consider though, Atziris Acuity. This item was broken as fuck at one point, and now its not, even though its the same as it was back then. This is because they changed how leech works and things like reflect which are a huge leech/instaleech consideration. In the manner you have suggested here, they looked at what was in the game beyond the item that needed reworked.

But thats not what they did at first, in 1.3.0 they first nerfed the shit out of acuity by lowering its leech effectiveness to 60%, globally through the database, no legacy versions. They hammered that item, which restored balance to the meta. They then took their time working out what they really wanted to do with leech long term, made the changes and then removed the 40% nerf they made to the gloves, globally, with no legacy items.

Below Im gonna describe how there is no 'new' voltaxics, even ones that drop after this change will still be 100% conversion written on the item under the hood. If in 3 months, 6 months, they make massive changes to poison and chaos then all this can be reversed at the flick of a switch and every voltaxic in the game will switch back to 100%. Now if they are planning this, and they tell people, then people will bank on it. What if something happens where they change their mind, and instead of putting voltaxic back to 100% they then release a quiver to get it to 100% again? For some reason this is needed, theres another stat they want to require you to have equipped for 100% conversion or maybe in the mean time something interesting came from 60% that would be spoiled. So what then? How pissed off are people going to be who were banking on them reversing it?

Better to just not say when they dont know for sure what will happen. Historically a 40% nerf to an op metadominating unique has happened once and it was reversed within a year following a wider balance overhaul. Dont be too hasty with being sure what you see here is the final word on these items or the mechanics. This fixes poison for next league and restores perceived build diversity, that needed to happen.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

3) Take a global "nerf" approach regarding chaos damage, but they shouldn't scale it variably in regard to the legacy CD daggers for example - they should keep their stance like in Voltaxic case and "nerf" them to the same level as regular CD (if they are serious regarding the meta change);

they literally cant do this, according to what they have stated in the past regarding the way items interact with the database. What I am presuming they are doing is the same as life leech, the game will see 100%, 75%, 50% etc written on the item and then convert it to 60% of that value. This is global, this means when voltaxics drop in future they will still drop with 100% conversion written into the item, not 60%, that 60% is just a visual hack backed up with changing the way the maths behind it works globally through the data base. Theyre not touching the items, even the new dark daggers etc that drop will be no different to the second gen legacy ones.




They said there will be a dev manifesto post on it coming right? We will have to see what they say.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

What I am presuming they are doing is the same as life leech, the game will see 100%, 75%, 50% etc written on the item and then convert it to 60% of that value. This is global, this means when voltaxics drop in future they will still drop with 100% conversion written into the item, not 60%, that 60% is just a visual hack backed up with changing the way the maths behind it works globally through the data base. Theyre not touching the items, even the new dark daggers etc that drop will be no different to the second gen legacy ones.

Ok, lets assume you are right. How would you explain to new player that item which has mod 100% of lightning damage converted to chaos in fact does not convert 100% but 60%...

That would look soooo lame.

"

Diphal wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

What I am presuming they are doing is the same as life leech, the game will see 100%, 75%, 50% etc written on the item and then convert it to 60% of that value. This is global, this means when voltaxics drop in future they will still drop with 100% conversion written into the item, not 60%, that 60% is just a visual hack backed up with changing the way the maths behind it works globally through the data base. Theyre not touching the items, even the new dark daggers etc that drop will be no different to the second gen legacy ones.

Ok, lets assume you are right. How would you explain to new player that item which has mod 100% of lightning damage converted to chaos in fact does not convert 100% but 60%...

That would look soooo lame.

Because as Snorkle said, it is displayed as 60%.

It's the same as leech, items that had 1.0% still have that same mod, but there was an additional modifier added to leech itself, which divides the leech by 5 and displays it on the item as such, i.e 0.2%.

"

TheAnuhart wrote:

"

Diphal wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

What I am presuming they are doing is the same as life leech, the game will see 100%, 75%, 50% etc written on the item and then convert it to 60% of that value. This is global, this means when voltaxics drop in future they will still drop with 100% conversion written into the item, not 60%, that 60% is just a visual hack backed up with changing the way the maths behind it works globally through the data base. Theyre not touching the items, even the new dark daggers etc that drop will be no different to the second gen legacy ones.

Ok, lets assume you are right. How would you explain to new player that item which has mod 100% of lightning damage converted to chaos in fact does not convert 100% but 60%...

That would look soooo lame.

Because as Snorkle said, it is displayed as 60%.

It's the same as leech, items that had 1.0% still have that same mod, but there was an additional modifier added to leech itself, which divides the leech by 5 and displays it on the item as such, i.e 0.2%.

You can't compare the leech change to the change of chaos conversion mods. One was a global change that affects every single build that leeches and overall increases the amount you leech, as long as you are attacking enough targets, while the other is nothing but a direct numerical nerf, that historically would have been (and has always been) a legacy created item in the process.


Large game mechanic isn't the same as a numerical nerf on conversion items (its actually only chaos conversion items)

"

goetzjam wrote:

You can't compare the leech change to the change of chaos conversion mods. One was a global change that affects every single build that leeches and overall increases the amount you leech, as long as you are attacking enough targets, while the other is nothing but a direct numerical nerf, that historically would have been (and has always been) a legacy created item in the process.


Large game mechanic isn't the same as a numerical nerf on conversion items (its actually only chaos conversion items)

I'm not comparing the ramifications, I'm answering a simple question about how it is done and displayed.

In with both feet without reading, as usual, goetz.

"

I can't fathom some of the standard players frustration right now personally like okay we've had several of them like the last ''legacy'' nerf to chaos was not retro now it is? What the fuck lol

This is a step in the right direction though. If something gets changed it means it should not exist in the game in its previous state.