So are you going to continue the trend of no legacy items?

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Antnee wrote:

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zzang wrote:

So this basically means items that have an unique mod which can be changed without affecting other items usually go legacy. While items that have a mod other items use aswell usually dont go legacy?

But then, Mjolnir.

So, what the fuck.

That can only mean the Myolner mod isn't unique even though it may seem that way.

If you were designing a game, would you create a mod for every possible gem tag that says:
"X% chance to cast a fire spell on hit"
"X% chance to cast a cold spell on hit"
"X% chance to cast a DoT spell on hit"
"X% chance to cast a projectile spell on hit"
...

Or you would instead make a single two-parameter mod that says:
"X% chance to cast a Y spell on hit"
that can use any gem tag code as Y.

Or even a three-parameter mod that says:
"X% chance to cast a Y spell on Z"
with Z being, hit, crit, kill and whatnot.

That way you covered a fuckload of different mods with a single one, pretty efficient, eh?

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raics wrote:

That can only mean the Myolner mod isn't unique even though it may seem that way.

If you were designing a game, would you create a mod for every possible gem tag that says:
"X% chance to cast a fire spell on hit"
"X% chance to cast a cold spell on hit"
"X% chance to cast a DoT spell on hit"
"X% chance to cast a projectile spell on hit"
...

Or you would instead make a single two-parameter mod that says:
"X% chance to cast a Y spell on hit"
that can use any gem tag code as Y.

Or even a three-parameter mod that says:
"X% chance to cast a Y spell on Z"
with Z being, hit, crit, kill and whatnot.

That way you covered a fuckload of different mods with a single one, pretty efficient, eh?

Thats an interesting thought, it would mean that Cast on Crit gem and Mjolner are tied together. But the changes to both objects in different patches (mjolner nerf happend in 2.0.0 and CoC reduction % happend in 1.2.0) hint that there is no connection or no hinderance to change both items separetly.

Maybe its really just defined by GGG themselves what goes legacy and what is nerfed retroactivley.

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zzang wrote:

Thats an interesting thought, it would mean that Cast on Crit gem and Mjolner are tied together. But the changes to both objects in different patches (mjolner nerf happend in 2.0.0 and CoC reduction % happend in 1.2.0) hint that there is no connection or no hinderance to change both items separetly.

Hmm, I don't think gems work that way at all, they aren't random so there's no reason to store any mod parameters on them. I mean, a gem on your char probably has only three entries, experience, quality and corruption yes/no, that's enough for the game to determine everything about it. When you modify gems you wouldn't need to touch them at all, you modify their table instead.

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Diphal wrote:

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adzang wrote:

I think for the future of POE making sure there is no legacy items anymore is important this helps to create balance all around in both economy and play-ability which this helps stop people from controlling the game.
This also helps to make it easier for future balancing as it can be seen exactly what needs to be worked on if there is a uniformed approach to items instead of massive randomness that ends up taking way to much time looking at stats and items to work things out.

What the hell are you talking about. You are like legacy items could ever make it to temp leagues, which is only place where balance in economy is justified.

Legacy items are something people in std can farm for (if they still have willpower to play in standard). Market is insanely flooded and legacy items are only items which keeps their value. And thats positive.

Honestly I don't understand this. Most of players which argue how good non-legacy philosophy is are playing temp leagues only anyway. Why do you care then?

Like I said, legacy items are good thing since they are only items with league specific and GGG rares worth farming for.

LOL you have lost it. The discussion is on legacy items so obviously this relates to standard and hardcore which a lot of people do still play those and prefer those over leagues.

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raics wrote:

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Antnee wrote:

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zzang wrote:

So this basically means items that have an unique mod which can be changed without affecting other items usually go legacy. While items that have a mod other items use aswell usually dont go legacy?

But then, Mjolnir.

So, what the fuck.

That can only mean the Myolner mod isn't unique even though it may seem that way.

If you were designing a game, would you create a mod for every possible gem tag that says:
"X% chance to cast a fire spell on hit"
"X% chance to cast a cold spell on hit"
"X% chance to cast a DoT spell on hit"
"X% chance to cast a projectile spell on hit"
...

Or you would instead make a single two-parameter mod that says:
"X% chance to cast a Y spell on hit"
that can use any gem tag code as Y.

Or even a three-parameter mod that says:
"X% chance to cast a Y spell on Z"
with Z being, hit, crit, kill and whatnot.

That way you covered a fuckload of different mods with a single one, pretty efficient, eh?

Well, my point is this: Voltaxic is an ancient item; it predates the whole "I wish we did things differently" perspective that Rory(?) has on legacy items. You'd think that because it was made back in the day, that it would be among those items that were coded in such a way that prevents them from retroactive nerfing it. Mjolnir came after that, but wasn't able to be changed.

It's just frustratingly inconsistent. I haven't even touched on my feelings here... Personally, I wish they'd leave standard the fuck alone. I don't want to run the balance/league/meta hamsterwheel.

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Antnee wrote:

It's just frustratingly inconsistent. I haven't even touched on my feelings here... Personally, I wish they'd leave standard the fuck alone. I don't want to run the balance/league/meta hamsterwheel.

Who knows, if they created a legacy item only if they had to in all previous cases I'd say that's very consistent. Now, I do think they followed this rule because the pattern matches the way I believe they do things over there, but who knows, I might be wrong.

However I do think they made a big mistake of not being transparent enough about it, if they explained how the whole thing works right from the start they would avoid at least some of this crap. At the start of this whole legacy situation they said 'we would like to avoid creating them, but that would mean shutting down the server for a few days until our script can sniff out all offending items and reroll them, so we decided not to'. I assume it would take that long because they said once that they can't modify items on the live realm directly, so I'm guessing it would have to force a reroll until all stats fall roughly within the set bracket to avoid ruining items with high rolls.

Yeah, a lot of guesses there, that's exactly what I'm talking about, there's a time and place for playing secretive and that wasn't it. Unless that old proverb about there being no such thing as bad publicity is true about this too, in that case good job.

GGG had stated in the past that they don't want legacy items if they can avoid it.

When GGG changes an item they change it because they believe it must be changed; for this in particular for balance reasons, while I am sure they appreciate feedback on why one disagrees or agrees with the changes they are making, getting upset over it and demanding that things essentially stay in their broken state is beyond ridiculous.

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raics wrote:

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Antnee wrote:

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zzang wrote:

So this basically means items that have an unique mod which can be changed without affecting other items usually go legacy. While items that have a mod other items use aswell usually dont go legacy?

But then, Mjolnir.

So, what the fuck.

That can only mean the Myolner mod isn't unique even though it may seem that way.

If you were designing a game, would you create a mod for every possible gem tag that says:
"X% chance to cast a fire spell on hit"
"X% chance to cast a cold spell on hit"
"X% chance to cast a DoT spell on hit"
"X% chance to cast a projectile spell on hit"
...

Or you would instead make a single two-parameter mod that says:
"X% chance to cast a Y spell on hit"
that can use any gem tag code as Y.

Or even a three-parameter mod that says:
"X% chance to cast a Y spell on Z"
with Z being, hit, crit, kill and whatnot.

That way you covered a fuckload of different mods with a single one, pretty efficient, eh?

Stats on items only have single value associated with them. There are no multi-value stats, however, they are stats that are used together like minimum and maximum damage for example (e.g. 20-30 cold damage, are two separate stats minimum_cold_damage and maximum_cold_damage).

However, on mjolnir in particular there is a mod that gives the stat
local_unique_attacks_cast_socketed_lightning_spells_% with value 30

Why this wasn't changed in a similar fashion retroactively I do not know. Perhaps they didn't think of a solution back then or they didn't want to cutter things up (since eventually you'll end up with a huge casting table that modifies values and obfuscating their client for other developers).
Of course it make sense if the stat was used elsewhere which would have broken things that weren't supposed to be changed, but given the naming of the stat I am not sure that was the case.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Legacy items are not something they do by intend or avoid by intend. They missed the chance to roll all items annew when they made the first items and now they are there. And as long as they don't state that they do something different (like they did this time with the conversion) people should expect legacies to work like they always did. Numerical changes to values on items create legacies, while mechanical changes in the game do not.

The issue here is people are viewing (rightfully so) as the change in reduction of chaos conversion items as a numerical change, you can't argue that it isn't because it is. If you want to say, no its the same thing they did with leech, that isn't true either, because when they changed the amount of leech to be a lower number, they changed the mechanics around leech as well. See a reduction of chaos conversion itself isn't a mechanics change at all, its just a numerical one, so it doesn't qualify.

Wrong. X * 0.6 = Y doesn't change X (the stored numerical value), it changes the outcome Y , and this is exactly what is happening.

They did change the mechanics with leech, but what happened to the value was exactly the same. X * 0.2 = Y, with X being the numerical value of the old leech and Y being the new leech.

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raics wrote:

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zzang wrote:

Thats an interesting thought, it would mean that Cast on Crit gem and Mjolner are tied together. But the changes to both objects in different patches (mjolner nerf happend in 2.0.0 and CoC reduction % happend in 1.2.0) hint that there is no connection or no hinderance to change both items separetly.

Hmm, I don't think gems work that way at all, they aren't random so there's no reason to store any mod parameters on them. I mean, a gem on your char probably has only three entries, experience, quality and corruption yes/no, that's enough for the game to determine everything about it. When you modify gems you wouldn't need to touch them at all, you modify their table instead.

Gems indeed don't have any mods. They have fixed stats per level and when gems get changed the data for the gem levels gets changed and not any items in the players possession. I don't know what information is stored exactly, but a reference to the base item (i.e. the gem), experience, quality, corruption, any mods are likely.

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Omega_k2 wrote:

Gems indeed don't have any mods. They have fixed stats per level and when gems get changed the data for the gem levels gets changed and not any items in the players possession. I don't know what information is stored exactly, but a reference to the base item (i.e. the gem), experience, level, quality, any mods are likely.

Not level, that's for sure. Remember recent lv20->lv19 ?
Also gems don't have mods, so it must be (as someone said earlier) only experience, quality and corruption flag.

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silumit wrote:

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Omega_k2 wrote:

Gems indeed don't have any mods. They have fixed stats per level and when gems get changed the data for the gem levels gets changed and not any items in the players possession. I don't know what information is stored exactly, but a reference to the base item (i.e. the gem), experience, level, quality, any mods are likely.

Not level, that's for sure. Remember recent lv20->lv19 ?
Also gems don't have mods, so it must be (as someone said earlier) only experience, quality and corruption flag.

That really only depends whether they have catch-all type of data storage table or do customized tables per item class. For the base item types, they did not do it separately; from the table structure a gem could have implicit mods (even though none do at this point of writing) and I'd think this behavior might be mirrored within a table for the storage of items.

Even so it depends on the implementation, if I had to guess I'd say any mods would be stored as extra table via 1-to-many relationship, which would practically mean that there is no actual mod stored (since the gems don't have any), but it would still be possible to do so. In any case this guessing basically, it maybe stored in other ways.

But you are right about the level, I included it because of the +level corruption, but given the point you raised regarding the "deleveling" of gems (which I totally forgot about), it would seem more likely that they're using some tricks to store the +1 corrupted gems, like setting the value to (max exp)+1/maxint/-1.