So are you going to continue the trend of no legacy items?

"

DurianMcgregor wrote:

"

I can't fathom some of the standard players frustration right now personally like okay we've had several of them like the last ''legacy'' nerf to chaos was not retro now it is? What the fuck lol

This is a step in the right direction though. If something gets changed it means it should not exist in the game in its previous state.

That isn't anywhere close to being true, legacy its are a fundamental thing for ARPG games and games that GGG took a lot of design Q's from, like Magic the Gathering.


That being said, they absolutely need to do a dev maf. post regarding legacy items and the future of itemization, because it matters to a lot of players.

"

goetzjam wrote:

That being said, they absolutely need to do a dev maf. post regarding legacy items and the future of itemization, because it matters to a lot of players.

This. I personally don't care if they create or don't create legacies, I just want them to do one or the other. If standard players understood that their items could be changed if the meta demands it, that would be alright, but that usually hasn't been the case.

Whoever said this is a stopgap measure before they re-do how poison, chaos etc works might be right. This feels like a very strange nerf otherwise, and an inconvenient one whenever they want to create new chaos items. If they nerf without creating legacies then they can un-nerf the same way.

Yeah that manifesto actually does need to come out it could calm the shitstorm of a hurricane lol

"

ThatsSoGoodman wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

That being said, they absolutely need to do a dev maf. post regarding legacy items and the future of itemization, because it matters to a lot of players.

This. I personally don't care if they create or don't create legacies, I just want them to do one or the other. If standard players understood that their items could be changed if the meta demands it, that would be alright, but that usually hasn't been the case.

Whoever said this is a stopgap measure before they re-do how poison, chaos etc works might be right. This feels like a very strange nerf otherwise, and an inconvenient one whenever they want to create new chaos items. If they nerf without creating legacies then they can un-nerf the same way.

The thing is the only way to avoid legacy items is to shift the entire mod they use. Which is possible right now, since they will change all conversations to chaos as it seems. They could also very likely put a system in place that changes all new items, however they can hardly do anything with old legacies.

This is basically the first time they are a bit inconsistent, since the expected approach to changing those items would be to just change the numerical value in the conversation mod and this would create legacy items. In all other situations there were no legacy items since they didn't change the items. Volls, CoE, Vertex were all basically unchanged, just the mod they used changed, which of course changes the item. The same is true for leech, which just works differently and for crit mult.

Legacy items are not something they do by intend or avoid by intend. They missed the chance to roll all items annew when they made the first items and now they are there. And as long as they don't state that they do something different (like they did this time with the conversion) people should expect legacies to work like they always did. Numerical changes to values on items create legacies, while mechanical changes in the game do not.

In theory they could upgrade all old items to new ones, however this only works directly at patch and would likely increase the maintanance time, since it is a lot of work in the database, since you have to search for the changed uniques within billions of items. So I doubt they will ever do that. However if they can make a mechanical change that has a similar effect they can do that, however this only works if they want to affect ALL versions of a mod (which is not possible if you want to nerf the damage of a weapon as one example, since you would nerf every weapon that has %increased physical damage) or they have a mod that is only used on one unique. They did this with Dying Breath. It had 18% increased damage taken, which was unique to it. To not create a legacy item they simply told the game that the ID they used for increased damage taken now does something else, in this case increased aura effect, since the item doesn't know what the mods it has actually do it took over the new mechanic, since it just looked at the effect that was stored under the ID it has.

So what would a manifest post look like... mainly it would just clarify that legacy items is not a choice they made. Creating legacies just means quicker patching and exspecially for them a less annoying patching process. However if they made a very wide ranging change they usually don't create legacies. Sometimes the most obvious way to nerf or buff an item just happens to create no legacy item. And in this case there is actually no real way to keep a legacy item. Making a legacy CoE would basically impossible, it would require them to make an entirely new item with an entirely new mod, with the old one not dropping anymore. This however would mean that the old Item would not be CoE anymore. It would just be very messy. So it is mostly obvious when legacies are created and when not.

"

This is basically the first time they are a bit inconsistent, since the expected approach to changing those items would be to just change the numerical value in the conversation mod and this would create legacy items. In all other situations there were no legacy items since they didn't change the items. Volls, CoE, Vertex were all basically unchanged, just the mod they used changed, which of course changes the item. The same is true for leech, which just works differently and for crit mult.

Volls was basically long before the game was released if I recall correctly, largely irrelevant due to the fact that it was a buff, not a nerf. CoE was different, they changed the way the mod worked on purpose, because it wasn't the intended interaction they had when the item was created (it was changed not even 1 year after it was released)

Vertex was just a simple bug fix, it was never ever intended to reduce the mana cost of auras, GGG even clarified this when it was data mined or when someone first posted it I believe.

Crit multi and leech are overall global changes to those mods, they arent specific to a unqiue item or trying to change the meta, they are more balance changes then GGG just nerfing specific things to make them less appealing.

"

Legacy items are not something they do by intend or avoid by intend. They missed the chance to roll all items annew when they made the first items and now they are there. And as long as they don't state that they do something different (like they did this time with the conversion) people should expect legacies to work like they always did. Numerical changes to values on items create legacies, while mechanical changes in the game do not.

The issue here is people are viewing (rightfully so) as the change in reduction of chaos conversion items as a numerical change, you can't argue that it isn't because it is. If you want to say, no its the same thing they did with leech, that isn't true either, because when they changed the amount of leech to be a lower number, they changed the mechanics around leech as well. See a reduction of chaos conversion itself isn't a mechanics change at all, its just a numerical one, so it doesn't qualify.

"

So what would a manifest post look like... mainly it would just clarify that legacy items is not a choice they made. Creating legacies just means quicker patching and exspecially for them a less annoying patching process. However if they made a very wide ranging change they usually don't create legacies. Sometimes the most obvious way to nerf or buff an item just happens to create no legacy item. And in this case there is actually no real way to keep a legacy item. Making a legacy CoE would basically impossible, it would require them to make an entirely new item with an entirely new mod, with the old one not dropping anymore. This however would mean that the old Item would not be CoE anymore. It would just be very messy. So it is mostly obvious when legacies are created and when not.

Again we only can go based off of what GGG has done and what we know from previous changes. Think about this for a second, they just nerfed consuming dark last patch and made a legacy item in the process, for a chaos conversion unique, the precedent is actually following almost all legacy item changes GGG has ever made, if popular, nerf item and leave the values of previously dropped items alone. However that simply isn't what they are indicating will happen now all the sudden, hence the confusion.

Comparing what happened to CoE to what is going to happen in volt. may be similar in terms of nerf, but it isn't similar in situation due to the many factors mentioned above, like coe was out less then a year, volt has been out for many years, coe was working unintended with more multipliers (an oversight), while volt rift has always had its lightning conversion and shock chance, ect, ect.

They had to change CoE because it simply was too powerful of a combination given its cost and rarity associated with it and due to the fact that it did far more then what GGG intended, the design of the item was far too much and they made the choice to not create legacy items in this case, because the differences between the items would be night and day and they would never be able to balance for a legacy CoE.

So this basically means items that have an unique mod which can be changed without affecting other items usually go legacy. While items that have a mod other items use aswell usually dont go legacy?

"

Yeah that manifesto actually does need to come out it could calm the shitstorm of a hurricane lol

Seems super unlikely. Most people don't care, and the plurality of what is leftover aren't taking up their pitchforks - they're waiting to see how the changes as a whole actually affect things in game.

The shitstormers won't be placated by anything Chris could say on the subject, save 'we're changing our minds'.

"

innervation wrote:

"

Yeah that manifesto actually does need to come out it could calm the shitstorm of a hurricane lol

Seems super unlikely. Most people don't care, and the plurality of what is leftover aren't taking up their pitchforks - they're waiting to see how the changes as a whole actually affect things in game.

The shitstormers won't be placated by anything Chris could say on the subject, save 'we're changing our minds'.

It absolutely does matter, if they are changing the way they approach item changes in the future the population deserves to know this ahead of time. We know they are changing these specific items, but what about future items or even items that currently dont have legacy versions but might need adjustments down the road, its extremely important as a player to know what will or won't happen, thats the purpose of dev. maf. post.

"

zzang wrote:

So this basically means items that have an unique mod which can be changed without affecting other items usually go legacy. While items that have a mod other items use aswell usually dont go legacy?

But then, Mjolnir.

So, what the fuck.

"

innervation wrote:

Seems super unlikely. Most people don't care, and the plurality of what is leftover aren't taking up their pitchforks - they're waiting to see how the changes as a whole actually affect things in game.

The shitstormers won't be placated by anything Chris could say on the subject, save 'we're changing our minds'.

You call it shitstorm, I call it dissatisfaction with planned changes. When else we should express our complaints then now... after changelong will be released? Then it will be done deal. Its probably unavoidable even right now, but at least I can express my opinion.

What about Hungry Abyss jewel? If all items with chaos conversion will be nerfed to 60% of their previous value, it will be literally 40% nerf to leech with this jewel. I have to say that using this jewel without 100% conversion is pointless since you will allways have less leech if you are using Life Leech gem, Warlords Mark or some other form of global leech rather than local (Doryani's Invitation, crafted leech and other sources of 0.2 leech).

It is also nerf to Atziri's Promise.