Berserk - and why this class should be immediately changed [Long] [it seems 2.3 fixes it all]

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ihasmario wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

If the former, Berserker = lowlife attacker, end of story.

Reserving life would be bad, if you mean "on low life", because as it currently stands the 20% of life ought to be only max life.

That's the question that I need answered.
I can kinda see it either way, though I'm leaning on the common expectation ITT that it must be Life removed (not "a hit with damage equal to 20% of your Max Life").

That's the point of the reasoning though. If it does work in the unexpected way, then lowlife attackers of all varieties (melee, archer, wander) could really make use of this class.

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As far as running this non-melee, the aspd and attack damage is nice, but Raider just seems strictly better if you're using a bow. Or one of the Duelist classes, for that matter.

If the whole point of the class is to get hit and then fight back, they did a pretty weak job at exploring that theme. :(

I think a lot of people are underestimating the potential to outleech bosses from this class.

Generally speaking the biggest problem with leech right now is that you need to reach threshold ASAP (which usually means fast attacks, big damage, and all these other caveats) in order to survive boss fights that deal a combination of large and small hits.

This class and slayer both have the potential to circumvent this issue with or without VP (depending on how you build), and without the need to put in some key hits while manually dodging attacks (which is a serious time waste, especially for melee when you have to repeat the issue).

IMO, anyway.

I think the earlier theory crafts by myself earlier (i.e. corrupted energy, or scolds, or heartbound, etc) would ultimately be the "best" way to manage this build in an end-game capacity that is specifically building to utilise the leech.

In the end the safest way will just be to straight up use it as expected - i.e. play like a normal class but don't move away from big hits, and take a large HP pool over hp+defense... Or something like that

But TBH fam thats boring for me. Gotta live on edge.

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ihasmario wrote:

I think a lot of people are underestimating the potential to outleech bosses from this class.

Generally speaking the biggest problem with leech right now is that you need to reach threshold ASAP (which usually means fast attacks, big damage, and all these other caveats) in order to survive boss fights that deal a combination of large and small hits.

This class and slayer both have the potential to circumvent this issue with or without VP (depending on how you build), and without the need to put in some key hits while manually dodging attacks (which is a serious time waste, especially for melee when you have to repeat the issue).

outleeching of dangerous bosses can only be done with Vaal Pact. the health globe being 'full of light-red life' means you are almost dead - and this is what this node gives without Vaal Pact (or other, unannounced instant life leech source) (Berserk promo video has a scene with Kaom's fight - it shows perfectly well what this node gives - health globe full of red tint..)
https://youtu.be/pHtx6xKsVhg?t=33 he would have died without using a flask. and if you have to use flask why bother with this node in the first place?

even 20+5+3+5 -> 33% leech cap is still a cap. it takes 3 seconds to leech to full life. THREE seconds. in this game it is like eternity for some bosses (Meagera..). so people will use instant-flasks to get life instantly as the leech is simply too slow. why instant flasks are so popular? because 4k life from flask in 4 seconds is in most cases just 'too slow, too late'

for easier bosses the current 20% leech cap is perfectly enough. if anything it is the Slayer that fits melee playstyle better as it allows for leech while running away (using up the 'magazined' leech)

or just Vaal Pact and shadow/ranger. it is not that fast strong attacks are something uncommon..

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ihasmario wrote:

I think a lot of people are underestimating the potential to outleech bosses from this class.

Yeah, exactly. However it still is a problem that you cannot get both the 100% increased damage and the 100% leech on savage hits. WIthout the combo of the 2 the class IS weak.

Absolutely agree with OP. Apart maybe from a very, very niche build (just ONE!), there is no incentive whatsoever to choose Beserker.

I am actually going to have to stand still and take hits now to gain benefits here? wow, that will double my melee clearspeed for sure! Not to mention my survivability...

Sure, you could start a Ranged build, using a marauder.. but then we are no longer talking about "optimal" anyway, so we might as well take the extra 15 points to Vaal Pact and call it a day..

Why doesnt it get a nice bonus like other classes get.. Extra projectile.. always fortify.. easy frenzy charges, spell block.. THAT is something I not only can implement in a lot of builds, it is actually something that benefits me in a lot of ways.. Beserker class.. why?

Why not make a node that gives it +2 endurance charges. great for melee, great for discharge.
Why not make a node that make all melee skills cost 0 mana?
Why not make a node that makes mana reserved on life even cost less? or another benefit to BM?
Why not make a node that prodes x bonus whan wielding a 2-handed weapon

The current beserker class is just so...so....bland..uninteresting..not worth it.

sure, the probably will be someone that makes an OP Beserker build with legacy items, but so will other classes!

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xchokeholdx wrote:

sure, the probably will be someone that makes an OP Beserker build with legacy items, but so will other classes!

If you got mirror class gear and certain legacy items you don't even need an ascendancy class to be OP.

Well, I feel the "leech path" is actually kinda okay. It ends in an ability which is difficult to trigger but over-the-top in effect, and both notables combined give you good life sustain against both trash mobs and tough bosses. Because they're leech focused, and because of how Cloaked in Savegery works, you're incentived to prioritize offense over maximum Life, which fits the theme. As I've said before, I'd really like to see "Your Skills cost no Mana if you've taken a Savage Hit in the past 4 seconds," because that would mean the branch covers mana sustainment issues completely (even if it means dropping the Damage bonus from CiS).

However, I don't feel the Aspect of Carnage path fits nearly as well. Several people have pointed out how the bonus is just raw numbers with a drawback, and perhaps more damningly AoC and Crave the Slaughter have no apparent synergy whatsoever.

So I get this feeling that if you're more of a HC than SC player, and you're confident enough in your play to not get scared off by things like "Killed in the past 4 seconds," then Berserker seems good; at the very least, this group respects CiS like it should. However, there really isn't a SC fast high-risk clearspeed option, other than the outrageously boring AoC. I really think that 4-point path could use some redesign to make it both more interesting and more killy.

While my last few characters have been SC (thanks to a shared league and my friends playing SC), I still think and play like HC.

And I agree with what you are saying Scrotie.

A comparable example, IMHO would be a hardcore Vaal Righteous Fire build. It's extremely fun to play - and in some cases pretty risky, depending on what is happening. Even when you take VP and it's no longer "risky", you still get the adrenaline rush of "Hitting the button".

Even if my ideas about the class are totally wrong (which I doubt), I'm pretty sure that speccing into something where I'm getting that adrenaline rush you get from a HP drop - and then utilising it - then I've already won, and berserker is the most fun Ascendency for me.

I don't want to die, but I like almost dying :^)

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

However, I don't feel the Aspect of Carnage path fits nearly as well. Several people have pointed out how the bonus is just raw numbers with a drawback, and perhaps more damningly AoC and Crave the Slaughter have no apparent synergy whatsoever.

Maybe 'can't evade' would work better as a drawback for AoC, it kinda makes sense for a berserker and would make Unwavering a no-drawback pick. You'd have two obvious ways to build a berserker, avoidance with CiS and mitigation with AoC. And sure, avoidance mara would most likely suck major ass but that's a product of the current state of the game more than the weakness in concept.

Maybe if we got some way to play an avoidance armor build, perhaps a keystone like this somewhere between BM and RT:

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Glancing blows

Your armor score is added to evasion.
Your stun threshold is halved.
Cannot block or dodge.

The idea being that you try to position yourself to catch swings at best possible angles so they slide off the slopes of your armor, which would make you easier to throw off balance and interfere with motions required for dodging or blocking. What I especially like here is that a 2H juggernaut will be able to eliminate the drawback entirely and get a nice amount of evade and armor easily with Unbreakable. It could easily compete with Slayer in 2H builds at that point, and a Mara should be able to.

@raics
I think the only problematic drawback with Aspect of Carnage is the unwritten one: that it requires 4 points to acquire. This makes it impossible to synergize AoC with the Savage Hit mechanic.

Basically, I think the class should be:
2 pt Aspect of Carnage
2 pt Warcry option (already done)
4 pt Leech and Stun avoidance path, ending in Savage Hit trigger (kinda done, but costs 1 too many points; Pain Reaver and Rite of Ruin should be combined and the 5% mitigation dropped)
4 pt raw clearspeed path, ending in Savage Hit trigger (Crave the Slaughter is an okay start but a new notable is needed)