Berserk - and why this class should be immediately changed [Long] [it seems 2.3 fixes it all]

TL;DR: Berserk is the weakest class released so far. Not only because of 'numbers' but because it brings nothing new to the table while providing mostly conditional, weak or straight deceptive bonuses. I would not, ever, recommend anyone to pick this class. Ever.

Updated to accommodate for Feb.19th changes.

Current Berserk tree for all to see:
http://www.pathofexile.com/ascendancy/classes/Berserker

I'll demonstrate issues with Berserk on my two Marauder Characters: Facebreaker and Ground Slam one. It is easier to see the impact or lack of it when one can imagine the class in question in a real application scenario.

1. Minor node bonuses.

12% increased phys damage (base), life leech rate, warcry duration, increased armor, attack speed.
In general, nice but the base (12% IPD) is drowned by the sea of general %IPD from the tree and amounts to paltry 1-2% 'more' damage per node. Irrelevant in practice, very weak compared to other bases (like Pathfinders outrageous +5% flask effect). Minor bonuses in general are interesting but their blandness suggests general lack of vision for this class.

2. Major node bonuses

2.1. War Bringer

"

5% life/mana recovered on Warcry
100% increased Warcry cooldown recovery speed

Life/mana bonus is irrelevant in practice. Marauders are pretty much always on full mana due to leech/using BM keystone/gem. Life heal is good but it cannot be used mid-combat as a mini-heal due to it having an interruptible cast animation. Unreliable heal is not a heal and 5% is nothing (for both of my characters - 5k life - this is 250hp)

Cooldown - if I understand correctly - is a cooldown cut in half meaning you can cast them much more frequently. It might be nice however in practice - again, checking my characters - I do not use warcries much. Their bonuses are not very interesting to melee character.

Enduring cry is redundant as melee guys have other, automated charge generation methods. VS bosses it is useful to sustain charges but again marauders have the benefit of charge duration passives so casting it once per 10 seconds is perfectly OK.

Rallying cry gives damage bonus and mana bonus. Damage bonus is hardly noticeable as the damage is good enough anyway, mana bonus is great BUT it is again not needed due to marauders relying mostly on mana leech.

Abyssal cry is cool, looks great and feels fantastic however in practice 'warcry+attack' is usually slower than just 'attack'. Current Poison situation making Abyssal cry very strong most probably wont last into 2.2.

This is the node I'd skip. It is not bad per se but for my characters it brings nothing into the table.

2.2 Rite of Ruin

"

5% reduced damage (4 seconds after kill)
Cannot be stunned (4 seconds after kill)

Reduced damage is a great stat however the value is quite low given it is a conditional bonus. During normal map clear it might help vs stuff like Obelisks, Bearers, Volatiles. In most cases normal mobs do not pose much threat otherwise. It is highly unlikely it can help a character vs Bosses as the bonus will fade before fight ends.
Cannot be stunned in practice means 'cannot be stunned during map clear, can be stunned during boss fights (several of them)'. Immunity to stun is VERY powerful as it makes all swings hit and allows easy escape in case of danger. However both my characters have 5k life and good armour (and evasion, yes, evasion) so I'm hit for little and not crit that often so the stuns are not my major concern.

Good node. Conditional but the condition is easy to fulfil and as the most boss fights have at least some adds it might be up for at least part of the fight.

2.3.1 Crave the Slaughter

"

25% increased ASPD (4 seconds after hit)
10% increased MS (4 seconds after not being hit)

Conditional node. When hit is both easier and harder to achieve. When clearing maps it might be so that you clear mobs so quickly (and/or block/evade their attacks) that you are rarely hit (tested that more than once with Vaal Molten Shell on several characters - you are hit surprisingly rarely if you play well and have a Jade of Reflexes + shield). So this bonus during most of the map clear will be '10% MS'. Not bad. Movement speed is a valuable stat.
During boss fights and other tough encounters you WILL get hit and then the ASPD bonus activates. Win-win.

Good node. Conditional, gives to a character stuff one needs when its needed. I wish all nodes were that good.


2.3.2 Aspect of Carnage

"

40% more damage
10% increased damage taken

Strong numbers buff. If the 'damage' portion stays - that is there is no 'melee' or 'attack' damage modifier it might be good enough to even convince some Duelists or Templars to start Marauder (rather than other way around..)

40% more damage is just that - 40% more damage dealt. It is a very strong perk. What the 'damage' (instead of 'attack damage' or 'melee damage') part means is strong buffs to atypical damage sources:
- CwDT procs (molten shell gets deadly on lvl20..)
- Abyssal Cry
- burns from Herald of Ash (and damage from other Heralds)
- most probably also totem/mine/trap damage (interesting with whack-a-mole totem)
- if mechanics work that way this also buffs Infernal Blow's/Detonate Dead's explosion damage (secondary damage)

The drawbacks seems to be justified by the power of this node. It is also good that there is no condition attached to it.

It remains bland - just a number - and the drawback is harsh and the opportunity cost of simply selecting other classes is still there. However it is no longer deceptive (it WAS a huge issue in my opinion) and the damage bonus it grants is really worth trying out.

Old feedback for 100% increased attack damage:


2.4.1 Pain Reaver

"

2% damage leeched as mana/life (4 seconds after kill)

Conditional. As close to Catch 22 as I've ever seen in a video game and I've seen lots of them. Condition (on kill) means that it is pretty much always up during the map clear. Provides extra leech when other leech sources are present (curses, gems, passives) and augments its value (albeit both my marauders cap the leech rate instantly so this is a moot point). This is a convenient bonus one can appreciate.
Problem starts when one arrives at a boss fight and this bonus drops. He is now no-leech sad panda. So he HAS to have some other leech source to cover this situation. It CANNOT be curse
(curse immune maps) so - passives, items or leech gem. So these have to be there.

So there is a question - why pick a node that gives something I already have? This node is POINTLESS. Just that - it is POINTLESS. That conditional build-in fail makes it completely, utterly pointless as the player HAS to have a solid leech source for fights (no, it cannot be the Cloaked in Savagery, more on that below) so he doesnt need this node. It is pre-2.0 Hyrri's Ire once again.

Note to the 'smart' ones: leech cap can be reached VERY quickly so the bonus during map clear is hardly relevant and does not make this node worth taking.

2.4.2 Cloaked in Savagery

"

20% increased Damage (4 seconds after Savage Hit - SH)
20% increased ASPD (4 seconds after SH)
100% od damage leeched as life (4 seconds after SH)

To make it clear - first two bonuses are ok. Some more damage, cool, move on. Or maybe not. The damage bonus for getting mauled is pitiful compared to sheer boatloads of damage other classes get from their 'ultimates' (or survivability - 1% ES regen per enemy killed? uninterruptible ES recharge?).
This wont trigger often during map clear so for the most part this 'bonus' is off. Both my chars have 5k life. For them to get hit for 1000 means I have to screw up badly. Remember that while your life globe jumps up and down it is a combination of lots of small hits in the most cases. Single big hit dealing 1000+ is a domain of few rare types, few bosses. Surprisingly most bosses deal its damage in small rapid hits. Only guys like Carnage hit you for really big values - and these guys you DO NOT WANT to get hit, ever. If it crits you are dead when stars align poorly.

Last bit - the leech. The impressive 100% leech. Holly grail of leech. The immortality.
The cake is a lie!
This one line is an epitome of deception. It promises immortality and great leech. What it delivers is 20% leech cap reached instantly and death a second later. This to be trully good requires Vaal Pact. You know where the Vaal Pact is? Far away. So far away that it is better to pick Ranger/Shadow, pick better class and just forget about it. Without Vaal Pact this line does NOTHING. With leech cap reached this has ZERO practical value. This is a noob trap no2. There will be throngs of players seeking advice 'please explain the Berserk leech to me because ive died when i shouldnt have'.

Last note. This node does NOTHING when hit 6 times for 19% total health each. Just a food for though.



Uff.. done.

3. Summary

In summary the Berserk is extremely bland. It brings nothing new to the game - just some numbers there and there. There is nothing new possible with this class that other classes OR pure marauders cannot do. This is a first sign of a bad design.
The second sign is that this class solves no issues melee players have (survivability vs inevitable big hits /no, re-reaching leech cap is not a help/, aoe clear speed compared to ranged. This looks like a class designed to some romantic idea of how berserkers or even melee in general works in this game. But this is a different game where ranged characters clear screens away. Marauder doing slow pong-pong-pong is already undesirable to play (and is not played above mid-level of players at all), bland marauder class doing pong-pong-pong is just bad.

I cannot imagine a build that would say 'I must take a Berserker for it, it is just that good with that class'. There is exactly 0 such builds in existence because Berserker just has nothing in itself. Several melee 'marauderish' builds will work best with duelist or templar starts. Not the other way around.




4. Suggestions.



2) Wording has to be clear so we do not have a band of disgruntled and unhappy players. 100% leech - reword or rework entirely. These are confusing players with open beta tags, they WILL confuse new players for sure. Add notes or whatever but people must know what they are picking.

3) Add something new, 'berserkish' to this class. Best - add rampage maybe. Rampage is fantastic mechanic and fits berserker like a glove. That would make it appealing enough so some duelists or rangers might even - blasphemy - pick a marauder! Because marauder player has lots of reasons to pick duelist, ranger or templar but never the other way around.

4) Life/Mana on kill/on hit. 2% leech has to go. Replace it with some combination of on hit/kill bonuses.
4b) gain life equal to/function of mana spent so the fighting really has some kind of momentum to it

5) or 'melee attacks cost no mana'. Why not? It is weaker than stuff like Hierophants 5 link helmets/gloves/boots or +1 chain from Deadeye and why weaker than bonkers 'you crit each time' or 'hey, you do not need Volls for your rainbowPuke'. It should allow for an extra herald that would at least be a noticeable bonus.

6) replace Savage Hit with 'for 4 seconds after being brough down to below 50%'. Brought down makes sure it is not always on for low life chars. That makes it trigger more frequently, in situations where it is needed. Current idea is very random and random based survivability mechanic is as good as no survivability mechanic whatsoever.


5. Coda
Done. I have no expectations and little hope as the melee is in an unwanted child state right now. Game gives good toys to popular classes making it even more popular while the least popular classes/gems are ignored and neglected.

Just imagine the uproar when the best ranged class has the stats of Berserker. Just imagine that. But ranged characters are entitled to free +chain or +projectiles, more damage multipliers and great crit. It is just how this game plays isnt it?

Melee gets drawback on their node.

6. Notes after Feb.19th update:
It is a good sign that 100% attack damage turned into 40% more damage. It fixed one issue that ticked me really hard (deceptive and misleading node name) and actually created a node that - to be blunt - is really good. combined with 25% aspd from the preceeding node it means HUGE dps boost. No fancy tricks other classes get, nothing more sophisticated than hit hard hit often but it fits Berserker.
The leech node remains. I have no qualms with it being on only after a big hit. But the 100% leech is just a nice number doing nothing in practice. Catch 22.

Id still pick Duelist for my ground slammer (due to very nice stun related nodes he has) but my facebreaker might actually enjoy being a berserker for once.

Some lines of thought.

aspect of carnage :

It's attack damage, which makes no distinction between phys/elements.

So in a sense its a sick bonus for elemental builds that wanna double dip on both more melee phys and WeD gem. Further more, its 100% which like you say, becomes more relevant the less you have. So it could save you a lot of travel cost simply by taking this allowing you to get a lot more life or other perks.

Lose the penalty though, or give it a solid flat life bonus to boot. The 10% extra damage taken "could" work, if you get flat life from the node as-well making it an interesting addition to the node, where you can trigger savage hits more etc.

cloaked in savagery :

Your correct, however if you can increase your total life pool to absurd amounts, allowing you to reduce your defenses while being in "similar" danger you could get a savage hit quite a lot, while also abusing your leech cap more efficiently as a result.

It's another way of playing and it does align with "berserking", at least what people perceive as a berserker.

The other stuff now

war bringer :

Should have gotten "can link war-cry's with Cwdt set-ups"

This fits thematically, since it allows more focus on combat and going nuts and it would also be a "powerful" boon to the ascendancy as a whole.

rite of ruin :

Agreed, it needs a "on kill" and "after no kill for x" effect. Crave the slaughter is an excellent example of something a player will enjoy/find useful. It never feels like a "waste".

pain reaver :

^same as rite of ruin. So i agree with your assessment, it fails when you need it and because of how it operates you are indeed forced into other sources of sustain, so why even pick this up, senseless node imo.

conclusion :

I don't think the game supports the play-style that is being hinted at with this passive tree.

It's basically for "legacy kaom" users that reach 10k+ life pools, which forgo defenses for absurd life pools and going ham on the content.

And since there is nothing in this ascendancy that allows you to beef up life total pool beyond the norm, it seems rather fail.

The difference between a ranger and a 2-hand melee for example is like 1000 to 2000 life, which is pathetic given the other differences in both play-styles. For a berserker to function, he would need to push his life total well beyond 8500k in my opinion for end-game content and he would still be in danger then due to scaling of damage and the increased damage taken node.

Peace,

-Boem-

100% attack damage double dips? from my understanding the 100% increased applies only once to base damage.

it isnt '100% phys damage, 100% fire damage' (then it would double dip) but '100% increased' and this is applied only once. the same rules as with conversion apply.

one extra idea for some class identity:

your weapon benefits from all melee weapon types damage bonuses

so if you wield a maul you can cherry pick good axe, sword and staff nodes and have their bonuses apply to your maul. gives some freedom while not really making it crazy good



it is so easy to list similar ideas that each is better than the absolute zero we have right now..

It double dips on the support gems was my point.

It will both work on "more melee physical" and "Weapon elemental damage" support gems.

Alternatively, you could make a functional elemental character with berserker, since 100% that also works for elemental is a big source for those builds.

Just saying that there is a place for such a big "global" attack modifier. It's not as redundant as you make it out to be. At least not to all builds, which is the point of ascendancy, obscuring their benefits dependent on build.

I simply disagree with some of your conclusions.

Rite of ruin and pain reaver are the biggest glaring issue's imo. All other nodes seem good, though i reckon not entirely supported by the current game-state.

Peace,

-Boem-

It doesn't double dip. It applies once to all attack damage. If you're pure phys converted to elemental there's no difference between it and 100% inc phys.

d

"

It doesn't double dip. It applies once to all attack damage. If you're pure phys converted to elemental there's no difference between it and 100% inc phys.

Not inclined to explain it to you since you literally posted after my post saying what i meant sorry.

phys melee attack damage% =/= attack damage% and that is relevant to support gems.

That should suffice.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

sidtherat wrote:

There is nothing new possible with this class that other classes OR pure marauders cannot do. This is a first sign of a bad design.

Agree with pretty much everything you said. I see the above as being the most important bit.

"

Boem wrote:

phys melee attack damage% =/= attack damage% and that is relevant to support gems.

That should suffice.

Peace,

-Boem-

100% increased phys melee will give exactly same tooltip like 100% increased attack damage

there is no double dipping, i have no idea why you thought otherwise

same logic applies for phys bows for example, there is no difference between generic 10% projectile damage and 10% physical damage with bows. no double dipping occurs, even tooltip is the same

phys melee attack damage = attack damage

I'd just change the name to something else, the skills granted just don't *feel* like a berserker.
When I think berserker I imagine a very angry man attacking wildy, ignoring pain and having no regard to his own wellbeing.