Berserk - and why this class should be immediately changed [Long] [it seems 2.3 fixes it all]

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sidtherat wrote:

Imagine this class given to Shadow. Just imagine that outrage. in such case this post would have had 100s replies already.

Actually, that would be kinda... ok, vaal pact nearby, usually avoidance based, I can see Berserker making a decent amount of sense on a Shadow, in terms of game mechanics, of course.
Of course, lore-wise it would make exactly zero sense, if Scion had three classes like the rest it would probably fit her better, in case she likes punishment play.

Berserker actually reminds me more of the Monk from Pillars of Eternity, instead of Barbarian.

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raics wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

Imagine this class given to Shadow. Just imagine that outrage. in such case this post would have had 100s replies already.

Actually, that would be kinda... ok, vaal pact nearby, usually avoidance based, I can see Berserker making a decent amount of sense on a Shadow, in terms of game mechanics, of course.
Of course, lore-wise it would make exactly zero sense, if Scion had three classes like the rest it would probably fit her well, in case she likes punishment play.

Berserker actually reminds me more of the Monk from Pillars of Eternity, instead of Barbarian.

it wouldnt be.. kinda.

what seems to get people with this class is that '100% leech' number. but this value is completely, 100% meaningless. it can be as well 10%, 50%, 200% or 5000%. it means nothing really (but round big numbers have the power similar to apple's distortion field)

characters doing end game content have damage high enough that VP + 2% leech is ~enough. if they want more - they can easily get more. no need to take this class for 100% leech on a condition.


surely, there are situations where 100% damage is better than 2% or 5%. however there are also situations where RELIABLE, always-on 2 or 5% beats 1000% that at given time is 'off'. i bet the second cases are far more frequent


this is the problem with this class. you can probably build some kind of a pump machine with self-damage to reach this 20% (if self-hits can trigger SH..) reliably. but it is so awkward that chances such character can do maps in question (the legendary double vaal temples, triple atziris and quad cores) is less than slim.

so what is the point? id really like to know the reasoning that builds an entire character on a bonus that can simply not be on for whatever reason. what then?

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sidtherat wrote:

what seems to get people with this class is that '100% leech' number. but this value is completely, 100% meaningless. it can be as well 10%, 50%, 200% or 5000%. it means nothing really (but round big numbers have the power similar to apple's distortion field)

characters doing end game content have damage high enough that VP + 2% leech is ~enough. if they want more - they can easily get more. no need to take this class for 100% leech on a condition.

In endgame terms, you're completely right. However, a certain amount of things in PoE are designed to provide better levelling experience, you know, newcomers to the game and such. If you don't give an early game char 100% leech you won't really see him leeching, that's the problem. And devs probably want players to see a strong immediate benefit from taking an ascension notable after going through all that trouble to tackle the labyrinth. I agree there's a psyche effect behind 100% leech, but a different one. You gain regular skill points as you go, gaining a skill point or picking a passive is a small step in the development of your char and usually isn't a major event, they probably want ascendancy notables to be one, and for that you must feel it.

Actually, low level uniques with decent amounts of leech in endgame terms, like 1% or something bring a smile to my face, it's just so absolutely worthless :) They should probably do the same thing for leech they did to vaal souls, x10 leeched amount in normal, x4 in cruel.

And about the point behind Berserker, if it was meant for an inexperienced player running a poorly optimized build in low-mid maps, I think it will work splendidly. Old, salty chipmunks will give it a wide berth but they aren't the target group anyway.

Just imagine Palace Map with dominus + hard mods because you need IIQ/IIR and then you need activate your shit 20% leech :D Go take a hit...

That wall of text lol .

Shield+hybrid ar/eva build. Goes to ranger to get more block. Gets VP. Usually no damage taken, sometimes large hits taken, INSTANTLY leech back to full with 100% dps leech.

Or, Discharge build. Goes up Templar to Witch grabbing endurance and power charges, and aoe. Uses Vinktar's (with alchemist node?). Probably Iron Will. Maybe Abyssal Cry?

The attack damage and stun immunity nodes seem good for Bowrauder, maybe with Chin Sol, and Rearguard using Lioneye's Fall+staff nodes for some block?

This class also seems good for Oro's, either for damage or for leech.

Also, 100% leech + The Retch? LOL.

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Probably the best buff to this class would be AoE on some of the minor nodes. For example, I'd take AoE over attack speed any day. AoE would be a considerable buff to every mara build that doesn't go to the north-west corner of the tree, and I think this class specifically could use the AoE because it would add to the fast-clearing idea suggested by all those "on Kill" effects.

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ThatsSoGoodman wrote:

Shield+hybrid ar/eva build. Goes to ranger to get more block. Gets VP. Usually no damage taken, sometimes large hits taken, INSTANTLY leech back to full with 100% dps leech.

Or, Discharge build. Goes up Templar to Witch grabbing endurance and power charges, and aoe. Uses Vinktar's (with alchemist node?). Probably Iron Will. Maybe Abyssal Cry?

The attack damage and stun immunity nodes seem good for Bowrauder, maybe with Chin Sol, and Rearguard using Lioneye's Fall+staff nodes for some block?

This class also seems good for Oro's, either for damage or for leech.

Also, 100% leech + The Retch? LOL.

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Probably the best buff to this class would be AoE on some of the minor nodes. For example, I'd take AoE over attack speed any day. AoE would be a considerable buff to every mara build that doesn't go to the north-west corner of the tree, and I think this class specifically could use the AoE because it would add to the fast-clearing idea suggested by all those "on Kill" effects.

sadly noone will play these types of builds because other classes have way better bonuses. shield users have duelist, ranged classes have ranger (even if they go to mara to play inefficient iron grip archer the bow bonuses are crazy good on ranger. even with explosive arrow.).

discharge with vintakar does not need this class whatsoever. without it you need vaal pact and AFAIK reflect damage is not a 'hit' so you wont teigfer savage hit on reflect and die instantly

oro' users can take duelist leech node and pick a better templar start (oro already has 10% damage taken. 20% damage taken is pushing it too far). best thing is that most probably the best class for oro is.. witch elementalist (status aliments plus prolif is just insane) or raider for uber frenzy charges

retch is a legacy item


when black crest helmet appeared people were machinegunning ideas explaining why 8% to all stats is gamebreaking. it is the same stuff here. most of these ideas fail when tested and/or pales in comparison to what is possible with other classes

sure. some stuff can be done with berserk and he has 2 good nodes. but it is similar to saying that plating without a helmet is a viable option. you can probably kill uber without helmet. but does it make any sense to play sans helmet?

even guys on state of exile podcast had fallen in love with a big number and yet had no real idea why it is good. other classes make this one look like bad joke. and the sad part is that it is a trap for new players.

100% leech would be very usefull on 1vs1 situations, especially if the damage is not that high. Something like 3% leech can be enough when fighting packs with very high DPS, but on boss fights it could be very important.

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sidtherat wrote:

2.3.2 Aspect of Carnage

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100% increased attack damage
10% increased damage taken

This one is just bad. It is bad node damage wise (details below), it is bad node mechanics-wise, it has a drawback (as one of ~2 total nodes with drawbacks) and it is a white lie that many new players will 'buy' and then be just outraged.

100% attack damage. What does it mean? It means 3 good jewels. It means that character that has 400% combined 'increased' damage sources gains 25% 'more' damage. 25% does not sound that impressive, does it? There will be THRONGS of new players asking why their tooltip damage barely changed after speccing that node. It is a total noob trap in this regard.
Ofc there are builds - albeit most of them are 'niche' to put it mildly - that take little % increased from the tree and for them it might mean 40% 'more' damage or even more but I have troubles imagining such a build. Even Facebreaker that takes ~200%inc phys from the tree would gain little from it.

And there is a drawback. I cannot imagine WHY this bland, weak node has a drawback.

Just why?

Very bad node. Deceiving. Dangerous (drawback). Worth at best 3 jewels. Brings nothing new. This node just doesn't have a substance whatsoever

Only one I (almost) fully disagree with. 3 jewel slots, you say? When did 3 jewels slots, full of godly rolled damage jewels, became bad? Saying that it is bad at 400% increase damage is just dumb. Take 300% and take this node. There you go, you saved a lot of nodes to increase you defense, or something else.

Increased damage taken should be conditional, say, when on full life, maybe? Or maybe just drop it as a whole. 100% increased damage is nowhere near "noob trap" or "bad". It is not very creative, yes, but I imagine being a berserker ain't really a creative job. ;)

100% increased Attack Damage
10% increased Damage taken

i think they forgot a "0" - 1000% increased Atack Damage or "100% MORE Attack Damage"