Berserk - and why this class should be immediately changed [Long] [it seems 2.3 fixes it all]

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

@raics
I think the only problematic drawback with Aspect of Carnage is the unwritten one: that it requires 4 points to acquire. This makes it impossible to synergize AoC with the Savage Hit mechanic.

Dunno if AoC should be a 2 point node, I think 'dps for survivability' tradeoff deserves a full 4 point branch as it's a berserker staple, but it would certainly need a rework one way or the other.

The trouble with the class could be that it does one trick in few slight variations, that's why I wanted to split it in two more clearly. A slow burner type that gets permanent bonuses, using rage to ignore hits and a volatile one that feels the pain and uses it to retaliate, the latter one won't work if we don't have a way to play armor as eva.

Keystone is probably crap but the general idea is we need some source of avoidance without actually going evasion, that would go for a duelist but not for Mara.

You know, it is possible to take the top path out of Marauder start. Armour isn't mandatory. In fact, encouraging non-Armour makes the top path more viable.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

@raics
I think the only problematic drawback with Aspect of Carnage is the unwritten one: that it requires 4 points to acquire. This makes it impossible to synergize AoC with the Savage Hit mechanic.

Basically, I think the class should be:
2 pt Aspect of Carnage
2 pt Warcry option (already done)
4 pt Leech and Stun avoidance path, ending in Savage Hit trigger (kinda done, but costs 1 too many points; Pain Reaver and Rite of Ruin should be combined and the 5% mitigation dropped)
4 pt raw clearspeed path, ending in Savage Hit trigger (Crave the Slaughter is an okay start but a new notable is needed)

I think the problem with Aspect of Carnage is Aspect of Carnage. I wouldn`t pick it even if it was for free.
If you think is a little balance issue...

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

You know, it is possible to take the top path out of Marauder start. Armour isn't mandatory. In fact, encouraging non-Armour makes the top path more viable.

Going through duelist would probably be a better idea but that's besides the point. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm saying it isn't supported in the slightest and Berserker currently just isn't worth taking a Marauder to the right side of the tree. No ascendancy class so far doesn't even give you the slightest of nudges in a direction the class doesn't usually go, let alone recommending such a maneuver.

On the outside Berserker seems attractive, but in reality it is just the worst ascendancy class (sharing last place with Hierophant)

I can guarantee that a large portion of new players will see the 100% increased attack damage and instantly take this class thinking it will double their damage while actually it is only equivalent to 20% more damage (and 10% more damage taken is a HUGE drawback)

Those new player will be highly disappointed and even more frustrated with the on-kill mechanics that are clunky and hard to sustain.

Does anyone actually read these posts? There are serious issues with multiple ascendency classes, but GGG seems to ignore all player feedback regarding ascendency classes.

If you wouldn't take 100% increased Attack Damage and 10% increased Damage Taken for free, we can deduce that at least one of the following conditions applies:
* You already have at least 800% increased Damage, before adding the 100%
* Your build is intended to tank mobs in Torment maps, or some other niche situation where tanking actually matters
* Your build relies on Spells for damage, but still Berserker because Cloaked in Savegery
* You are bad at this game
* You are a masochist

The further down the list, the more likely it is.

Edit: Now that I think about it, if you're trying to bust ghosts with a Berserker, either bad or masochist, so I could've left that one off.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

If you wouldn't take 100% increased Attack Damage and 10% increased Damage Taken for free, we can deduce that at least one of the following conditions applies:
* You already have at least 800% increased Damage, before adding the 100%
* Your build is intended to tank mobs in Torment maps, or some other niche situation where tanking actually matters
* Your build relies on Spells for damage, but still Berserker because Cloaked in Savegery
* You are bad at this game
* You are a masochist

The further down the list, the more likely it is.

Edit: Now that I think about it, if you're trying to bust ghosts with a Berserker, either bad or masochist, so I could've left that one off.

So, for the first time i have made some calculations to coroborate with what i expected.
It turn out that i have arround 669% increased phisical damage.

Taking Aspect of Carnage would mean aprox 12% increased damage at the cost of 10% increased damage taken.

So unless i`m seriously wrong with my calculations i wouldn`t take 10 such nodes if they were for free.

guys.. noone sane will play berserker for just for the CONDITIONAL (no control whatsoever) 'reach-the-life-leech-cap-instantly' node.


this node is garbage. it is risky, unreliable and is a bad joke compared to what other classes get. has no practical meaning during a) clearing weak content b) clearing hard thrash mobs c) clearing easy bosses d) clearing dangerous bosses

survivability mechanic that can fail is worth NOTHING. no matter how much romantic use scenarios you come with - it is a GARBAGE that only arm-chair warriors and late-Cruel theorycrafters will take seriously


if people want to outleech bosses - they REQUIRE Vaal Pact. if they take Vaal Pact - the base leech (2% or whatever they have) is enough. and it is RELIABLE. this is the most important part. if that is true - then why take this Berserk dude and be stuck with a bad class most likely playing non-crit stuff? why? there are better classes from Shadow/Ranger and most probably Scion that can take one node (Vaal Pact) and have all that Berserk gives. and have 6 good ascendancy passives to pick from as a bonus


all you enthusiasts speak as if that leech is guaranteed to trigger when needed - it isnt. 19.9% hit does not trigger it. high dps degen does not trigger it. reflect most likely does not trigger it. several rapid hits wont trigger it. player has no control - it triggers or it doesnt. rng based survival taken to the extreme!

this Savage Hit gimmick is gimmick for people that havent seen how fast you can die and that most deaths are NOT one shots but a clusterf.. of smaller hits in rapid succession coupled occasional death by crit*shocked ground*added elemental*-max. if one builds a build so he triggers SH from every odd hit this kind of combo will outright kill instantly.


it is even worse - this node (that most probably wasnt even playtested by good melee players - GGG's bias toward ranged/crit is more than showing trough the classes..) costs FOUR points. FOUR!

so you enthusiasts are left with an unreliable leech-cap-reaching node, worthless 2% leech node and you can pick one extra node to sweeten the deal. who is going to do that and claim he made a good deal?


the 100% attack damage is also four-pointer but at least the 2 point node is good. so it does not hurt as much. however the deception value of this node is huge: newcomers seeing 100% increased see 'double damage' and that is going to backfire badly. BTW: take a look at Raider's frenzy charge nodes and do the math for 7+1 frenzy charges and tell me that 100% is a good deal. and Raider's node has no drawback.


also: 'cant evade' idea is a death sentence. marauders stacking armor are WRECKED in maps with 1+ 'added %damage as element'. i bet that people complaining about 'huge phys damage' are in fact bursted down with rapid phys+ele hits from said mods. what helps A LOT in such cases is Jade of Reflexes (~6000 EV). this cuts the damage by A LOT. asking marauder to remove his evasion chance is not making him a favour. i know there are people thinking that selling evasion for cannot be stunned is a good deal but it in reality is a very bad deal



final note: id like to hear from the defenders one thing. WHAT if you are in a dangerous boss fight and you DO NOT trigger a Savage Hit? What then?

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sidtherat wrote:

final note: id like to hear from the defenders one thing. WHAT if you are in a dangerous boss fight and you DO NOT trigger a Savage Hit? What then?

You can easily remove some fire rezist, use incinerate, trigger Savage Hit, use a flask, than come back to the boss fight in style.

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sidtherat wrote:

also: 'cant evade' idea is a death sentence. marauders stacking armor are WRECKED in maps with 1+ 'added %damage as element'. i bet that people complaining about 'huge phys damage' are in fact bursted down with rapid phys+ele hits from said mods. what helps A LOT in such cases is Jade of Reflexes (~6000 EV). this cuts the damage by A LOT. asking marauder to remove his evasion chance is not making him a favour. i know there are people thinking that selling evasion for cannot be stunned is a good deal but it in reality is a very bad deal

Shit, man, it's a berserker, it has to give up survivability in some way. Like I said, I'd take no evade over 10% damage taken because it makes more sense and because you can get free stun immunity. You can think of the role of that branch of berserker as spicing up unwavering stance in a way, because the node is otherwise crap and if the damage bonus is good enough the whole thing just may be worth it, 30% more attack damage would sound less deceptive and it's a solid bonus, as much as an LL caster gets. Besides, if you aren't a fan of lugging a jade flask around or can't fit it your eva will suck anyway in 9 cases out of 10.

Sure, we may claim the need for more deeps is kinda suspect in the first place but we'll just pretend we need it for the sake of argument. If it isn't so, that would mean we're wasting our time here because the whole class is bust right at the concept level and it would be best to just scrap it and an think of something else.

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So, what did you think about what I was saying about the other side of the ascendancy tree? Would CoS make more sense if some kind of avoidance play for STR builds became a thing?