Cast on Crit is degenerative.

CoC stands for Cast on Cancer.
It seems like a broken mechanic, a not very good idea, and a great example that you can't balance something properly with too many multiplier factors.

Its existence is giant roadblock on creating any new mechanics with Crit/Spells/Multiple Projectiles/probably more I'm not aware of. I wouldn't mind slamming that roadblock. :v"

EDIT:

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OJ8_Graz wrote:

Cast on Crit has been nerfed countless times already to the point where some variants of the build like lowlife ones has become absolutely useless. Now this community wants to get rid of the actual gem because its "not good for game health" without even looking at how terrible (GGG calls this balanced) CoC builds are now compared to before. The drawbacks that come with the build adds up on every major patch and its really gotten hard to make it work to my standards in end-game. But hey it casts more skills per second than I do, so hell its totally broken and shit.

This is EXACTLY the reason CoC is bad for the game - it is either broken good, or useless. Sometimes it is not as simple as sliding the damage slider left of right. It is just that its mechanics are simply too volatile.

It would help if what oj8 was actually true about coc being weak.


low life coc being weak is a by product of low life being weaker than it used to be. not a result of coc being weak.

Coc never EVER needed low life. why would it? the whole concept behind coc is that it already does plenty damage. going low life for more damage on a build concept that has too much damage as a base line and spends the rest of its time finding better way to communicate that damage is silly.

Headhunters Vaal Spark can clear a map + boss in about 30-50 seconds.

Regular lowlife spectral throw can literally kill anything in the game, and remains one of the fastest builds for uber atziri, atziri, map clears, gorge clears, etc.

Blade Vortex has the highest damage scaling in the game by a landslide.

Blade Fall hits 2-3 times while already having better damage than similar skills(Glacial Cascade, Magma Orb, Ethereal Knives).

But no, let's complain about Cast on Crit. CoC Cyclone is slow and expensive as hell, CoC ST is expensive or squishy and generally can't even afford to run Life Leech without costing them a lot of damage.

I don't really see CoC anything as a top tier build, for anything. CoC Discharge can do Atziri, but it's slow compared to something like full build Blade Vortex or SRS - both of which can clear maps faster. CoC ST/Kinetic/Barrage builds are slower than regular Low-life Spectral throw/Wind ripper builds. Nerf it much more, and you'll have a gem about as useful as cast on death - a novelty and nothing more.

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JusJev wrote:

They should just remove CoC and introduce Multicast.

Linked spells cast simultaneously and share their mana cost.

i.e if arc is 16 mana and arctic breath 10 when linked with multi cast the spell now costs 26 mana + w/e the multiplier is for multicast, echo, crit damage etc and w/e other links.

A part of the major problem I find with CoC is that the triggered spells have no cost. The current meta is hmmm I wanna be a spell caster..wait.. wouldn't this be much better as CoC.

Except, not. You severely underestimate how much damage 5 links adds to a spell. Look at something like Bladefall?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7mbeCNviOQ Can't handle reflect? Throw trap on it.

How about a 2 million DPS Blade Vortex? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mykXN-BP9_k

How about Fireball shotgunning? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pnsdbJEAfU

Chaosstorm, Vaal Spark, numerous Trap and totem builds, etc. etc. etc.

CoC makes useless spells usable. Arctic Breath doesn't see selfcast just because CoC exists, it doesn't see selfcast because Freezing Pulse exists - Even Freezing Pulse doesn't see much play. Magma orb doesn't see much play just because CoC, it's because Magma Orb is an inferior self-cast spell to your other options. Why use MO when Firestorm does double it's DPS over a larger area and is instant and doesn't have weird mechanics?

It's not top-tier, it makes unusable spells usable(though nothing's saving ice spear :/ ), it's pretty good on a budget but falls off as gear gets better, and it doesn't handle reflect *at all*. It's a fairly balanced build with very distinct pros and cons.

If only it'd stop lagging the hell out of everyone else, though...

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Musashi951 wrote:

Headhunters Vaal Spark can clear a map + boss in about 30-50 seconds.

yeah we know, its getting addressed . just because there are other broken things in the game doesn't mean we dont need to look at this broken thing.

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Musashi951 wrote:

Regular lowlife spectral throw can literally kill anything in the game, and remains one of the fastest builds for uber atziri, atziri, map clears, gorge clears, etc.

that with or without mirrored gear? because i have serious doubts on this.

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Musashi951 wrote:

Blade Vortex has the highest damage scaling in the game by a landslide.

it does? have people been hitting 5.3 million dps with it? someone link me a 5.3 million dps blade vortex build.

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Musashi951 wrote:

Blade Fall hits 2-3 times while already having better damage than similar skills(Glacial Cascade, Magma Orb, Ethereal Knives).

probably going to get addressed . cant you use all of those skills with coc? Coc is not a spell, its a build type. so.. you know maybe compare it to build types rather than to the spells ... it kind of ...um ... uses.

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Musashi951 wrote:

But no, let's complain about Cast on Crit. CoC Cyclone is slow and expensive as hell, CoC ST is expensive or squishy and generally can't even afford to run Life Leech without costing them a lot of damage.

???????????? define expensive, wasnt some streamer doing coc with a tabby?

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Musashi951 wrote:

I don't really see CoC anything as a top tier build, for anything. CoC Discharge can do Atziri, but it's slow compared to something like full build Blade Vortex or SRS - both of which can clear maps faster. CoC ST/Kinetic/Barrage builds are slower than regular Low-life Spectral throw/Wind ripper builds. Nerf it much more, and you'll have a gem about as useful as cast on death - a novelty and nothing more.

man my guild would laugh so hard at this text block if they bothered with these forums.

considering they were coc, coc, coc , srs , blade vortex... and the fasted build of the bunch was coc...

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Musashi951 wrote:

Except, not. You severely underestimate how much damage 5 links adds to a spell. Look at something like Bladefall?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7mbeCNviOQ Can't handle reflect? Throw trap on it.

How about a 2 million DPS Blade Vortex? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mykXN-BP9_k

How about Fireball shotgunning? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pnsdbJEAfU

Chaosstorm, Vaal Spark, numerous Trap and totem builds, etc. etc. etc.

not 5.3 million....
plus again listing other builds that need to be on the chopping block doesn't excuse this one.

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Musashi951 wrote:

CoC makes useless spells usable..

here is a thought. how about we just make the useless spells useable? the problem with your logic here is that you dont need to use useless spell with coc, you can just use op spells with coc and ignore the useless ones.

At this point COC is the only thing keeping me playing the game. Everything else is way to vanilla, easy to build, and hits a power ceiling far to early.

Unless of course we consider broken mechanics like chaos conversion flameblast and rain of fire traps.

It is an issue that had been rather quickly building up for a while now. the power creep is kind of insane.

i still remembered when 20k dps was considered impressive , now that is a casually obtainable dps on a single minion on a summoner.

you can only double the hp and damage of monsters so much until the whole exercise is meaningless

Here's a thought.... Since everyone is trying so hard to be convincing that COC is so OP and such a huge problem at no real cost... Prove It!!!

All you guys wanting COC nerfed/removed so badly because its such a problem... Post all your shit solo self found gear that you are using on your COC builds right now that you are destroying ALL the content with ease including Uber with ZERO investment.

Also post your videos of your COC build in the most terrible gear you can possibly imagine with you crushing all the hardest content in the game...

Thats the problem with threads like this half the people complaining about these misconstrued ideas about the mechanics in the first place because half the people who complain dont even have the builds they complain about to being with... If you did you wouldn't be complaining because COC is NOT the most OP thing in the game where you can just slot it in with 2-3 other OP spells and destroy the game. You see mathil running the build and automatically decide its way to OP because he can crush the content with such ease. No one pays attention to him running a build that does all that insane damage with 3K fucking life... Nevermind that if ANYTHING even sneezes on him hes one shot... I mean if you invest everything into offense on any given build you can see similar results. I mean its called GLASS CANNON for a reason. And nevermind the guy has always runs these builds with some of the best weapon he can possibly find for the cheapest price... Who cares that he invests into his builds to make them have the results he has... he has too good of results so its a problem right?

Does anyone even notice that every single COC build he has run this league is ALL RUNNING THE SAME SHIT? Same flasks, most of the same gear other than weapons... He just taking all the invested gear he made the first build and making many variants and each one gets a little better than the first because hes still aquireing better shit as he builds them. But hey the skill its self is the problem right? Has nothing to do with the guy is playing the game correctly and seeing results. Anyone ever thought about instead of looking at his builds as examples that need to be ut on the chopping block, instead giving the dude the credit he deserves for not only being very damn good at the game especially when making glass cannon builds but also being able to make them work well!

Its just like every other OP mechanic in this game that has the capability to destroy the content in this game.. Its take a massive amount of investment it make it work well. As well it should be.. Why on earth would anyone invest so heavily into builds that will not destroy the content?

Like i said when people start showing complete trash gear they are running on thier COC build and destroying the game.. THEN and ONLY THEN will i or most anyone who runs these type of builds see an issue.. Because there is no issue. Theres COC builds that get one shot randomly in mid tier maps and then theres well built heavily invested COC builds that do amazing things.. And i believe the two are being confused quite a bit in this thread as a whole.. But like i said ill eat my words just as soon as you guys want to start posting that gear and videos to prove me wrong........

BTW anyone else noticed Vinktar's has influenced ALL CRIT builds this league? Oh that must be because of how much of a problem the COC gem is.... Surely it isnt that flask is a little too much... NAHHH

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

yeah we know, its getting addressed . just because there are other broken things in the game doesn't mean we dont need to look at this broken thing.

From what you're saying, quite literally every top tier build needs to be nerfed. Vaal Spark, Blade Vortex, SRS, Low Life flicker, Bladefall Totems, Vortaxic builds, Windripper builds, ST Builds, etc. I mean yeah, if you want to claim more than half of the popular builds are "broken and need to be on the chopping block", CoC would definitely fit there.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

that with or without mirrored gear? because i have serious doubts on this.

I do believe the video I was watching did have Mirrored gear. I also brought up Headhunter Vaal Spark which is about the price of the mirrored dagger. I was clearly talking about full-gear builds outshining CoC. CoC is very powerful in low end gear but falls off as the builds get more expensive. I'd take a 200ex SRS build/St/Flicker/Vortaxic/BV/Vaal Spark build over a 200 ex CoC any day.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

it does? have people been hitting 5.3 million dps with it? someone link me a 5.3 million dps blade vortex build.

Not sure where you got that number from. Blade Vortex has the highest base damage of any skill in the game at max stacks(outside of SRS) at 3,375 DPS(base).

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

probably going to get addressed . cant you use all of those skills with coc? Coc is not a spell, its a build type. so.. you know maybe compare it to build types rather than to the spells ... it kind of ...um ... uses.

Sure, you can, but you can't multihit it due to no room for knockback without losing a lot of damage.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

???????????? define expensive, wasnt some streamer doing coc with a tabby?

I wasn't aware Uber Atziri or Core runs were possible with a Tabby. For sure, CoC has a lot of power in lower gear, but my primary argument was they fall off as the gear gets better. They don't scale as well. The difference between a 3ex CoC setup and a 100ex CoC setup is relatively minimal. ~200% spell damage and ~10% crit chance with a bit of survival added in. Compare that to a +3 SRS staff[14ex item] 6-8x aura(wants Shavs, another 10ex+). Much larger power spike, there.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

man my guild would laugh so hard at this text block if they bothered with these forums.

considering they were coc, coc, coc , srs , blade vortex... and the fasted build of the bunch was coc...

CoC's great before you have access to top tier gear. No question there. And if you're competeing between 5 players... of course a suboptimally geared Blade Vortexer is going to be outdpsed by a CoC player. BV requires a hell of a lot of gear to pull off.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

not 5.3 million....
plus again listing other builds that need to be on the chopping block doesn't excuse this one.

Are you saying that a tabula rasa, blue vagan dagger CoCer is pulling 5.3 million dps? A perfect geared CoCer is pulling 5.3 million dps? I'm just not following where you're getting this number from. Are you assuming *perfect* proc rates? Is this Cyclone Discharge? ST? Barrage? Or some other build all together?

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

here is a thought. how about we just make the useless spells useable? the problem with your logic here is that you dont need to use useless spell with coc, you can just use op spells with coc and ignore the useless ones.

Good luck. Every spell in the game will never be equal in power. There's tradeoffs for everything and the meta/creature power we face greatly effects what is popular. Right now, Damage means everything. Who needs chilled ground when half the builds can 1shot everything? Why would you ever use Spark when Vaal Spark exists? Or even Arc? Spark's paltry duration makes it so more than half your sparks will fizzle out before ever hitting anything. That's fun. The spells that aren't being played just aren't good in this meta.

CoC is powerful with little gear. As you can purchase top-tier uniques or rares, its power compared to the other builds falls off. The problem with lumping all CoC builds together is they're different and excel in different areas. Cyclone Discharge CoC is amazing for killing bosses, but imo is a terrible map build, due to Cyclone being inherently slow, compared to casting 3 STs and whirling blading through everything. However, CoC-ST skips a lot of upper tier bosses because it's so terrible at killing them.

^^ srs is pretty far from top tier at moment just saying.

Watching those stream videos makes me think of D3.