Cast on Crit is degenerative.

"

Fhark wrote:

^^ srs is pretty far from top tier at moment just saying.

Shit
tier
garbage

is what it is right now if the AI was fixed then it would still be semi high tier.

@Demonoz

Wasn't a streamer (can't remember which one) playing a CoC + Discharge with 10k freaking ES?
And if i remember right Mathil CoC cyclone builds as hybrid now with around 6k~ ES + 2k~ life?

That is a fairly reasonable amount of tankyness for the amount of damage these builds do, considering they run a Volls Protector.

Then we have some obscene synergies (CoC Discharge + Volls Devotion) which are so insane that i wonder why haven't they excluded discharge from trigger gems already.

@Musashi951

CoC has one of the highest ceilings for DPS in this game, it has never been referred to as weak, even after multiple nerfs.

Comparing a broken mechanic (CoC) to a broken spell (Blade Vortex, because it is again scaleable by just about anything available: spell damage, cast speed, duration, poison, crit + rolls multiple times for crit per cast) is absurd.

"

Mannoth wrote:

@Demonoz

Wasn't a streamer (can't remember which one) playing a CoC + Discharge with 10k freaking ES?
And if i remember right Mathil CoC cyclone builds as hybrid now with around 6k~ ES + 2k~ life?

That is a fairly reasonable amount of tankyness for the amount of damage these builds do, considering they run a Volls Protector.

Then we have some obscene synergies (CoC Discharge + Volls Devotion) which are so insane that i wonder why haven't they excluded discharge from trigger gems already.

Again we are talking about 50 Exalt+ builds here... still not seeing this happen in self found trash gear which is the point. Investment SHOULD=Nice Build. Broken is when you dont have to invest anything and destroy the game.. Which your simply not going to see with COC. Youll see mediocre at best COC builds in tabula and self found trash gear without dedicating a shit ton of time effort and currency into the build period. Argueing that something is broken when players invest a shit ton into the build makes no sense.. not to mention theres a shit load of other builds with LESS investment with better results out there.

Demonoz

CoC actively inhibits the design space for spells. Every balance adjustment for spells must be parsed through CoC. I don't see how this can ever be healthy, Cast on crit just should not exist.
Furthermore, it even manages to encroach upon the balance of attack speed for melee skills/weapons, it's not implausible to assume that GGG must take CoC into consideration for Kinetic Blast either.

^^ maybe cast on crit exists because ggg want it to exist, and that's a good enough reason. Incidentally i love the mechanic and its the kind of thing that sets this game apart from other arpg's.

Cast on crit is fun , so it stays :D

"

Demonoz wrote:

Again we are talking about 50 Exalt+ builds here... still not seeing this happen in self found trash gear which is the point. Investment SHOULD=Nice Build. Broken is when you dont have to invest anything and destroy the game.. Which your simply not going to see with COC. Youll see mediocre at best COC builds in tabula and self found trash gear without dedicating a shit ton of time effort and currency into the build period. Argueing that something is broken when players invest a shit ton into the build makes no sense.. not to mention theres a shit load of other builds with LESS investment with better results out there.

Except CoC will outscale pretty much 90% of spell caster builds out there starting from level 70~ and upwards, and that is where the problem lies.
It is not a alternative way to do spells, it's the best way to play with spells, and as such is a limiting factor for spell design in the future.

I am arguing that no matter how much you invest into a spell caster build a CoC build with the same investment will gain much larger returns, which is clearly what defines a broken mechanic.

"

Musashi951 wrote:

Headhunters Vaal Spark can clear a map + boss in about 30-50 seconds.

Regular lowlife spectral throw can literally kill anything in the game, and remains one of the fastest builds for uber atziri, atziri, map clears, gorge clears, etc.

Blade Vortex has the highest damage scaling in the game by a landslide.

Blade Fall hits 2-3 times while already having better damage than similar skills(Glacial Cascade, Magma Orb, Ethereal Knives).

But no, let's complain about Cast on Crit.

We have other broken shit in the game therefore CoC is fine.

Ok?

"

Fhark wrote:

^^ maybe cast on crit exists because ggg want it to exist, and that's a good enough reason. Incidentally i love the mechanic and its the kind of thing that sets this game apart from other arpg's.

So you say you can't give any feedback, on anything, because GGG wants it to be the way it is?
Yeah, that seems about right.

...

No wait, that is total bullshit. :V

I would give to CoC gem "50% less crit" affix and it's good to go.

"

Musashi951 wrote:

From what you're saying, quite literally every top tier build needs to be nerfed. Vaal Spark, Blade Vortex, SRS, Low Life flicker, Bladefall Totems, Vortaxic builds, Windripper builds, ST Builds, etc. I mean yeah, if you want to claim more than half of the popular builds are "broken and need to be on the chopping block", CoC would definitely fit there.

Good, Good, you get it. CoC is but a single weed in what is now, unfortunately, a garden of weeds. The big picture is that right now there are too many extremely powerful builds that simply trivialize the content. poe is not even a quarter as difficult as it was in open beta. this is an inescapable fact. this be an easy game right now if you pick one of those popular builds.

Make no mistake though, it is still a weed.

"

Musashi951 wrote:

CoC's great before you have access to top tier gear. No question there. And if you're competeing between 5 players... of course a suboptimally geared Blade Vortexer is going to be outdpsed by a CoC player. BV requires a hell of a lot of gear to pull off.

I think looking at the top end is counter productive though. once you get past a certain damage threshold it kind of stops being important.

being able to do a ton of damage on the cheap is a larger issue than being able to do a ton of damage in the most expensive way possible.

for 99.999999999999912345% of all content. once you get over 200k dps you are good to go. 200k dps will instantly kill all trash mobs in the game no matter what they are (to the point where the real factor in clear speed is how fast you move and how big your aoe is)

ignoring high hp bosses. a 2.2 million dps blade vortex will clear just as fast as a 200k one as far as trash is concerned.

plus the issue with alot of these op skills is not how powerful they can be . but rather how easy they are to scale.

poison is a problem because you can reach stupid levels of damage for alts on the exa
blade fall is a problem because it has a stupid base and scales on a huge amount of things.. meaning its easy and cheap to boost its damage

blade vortex? same shit it scales on a ton of things

pre nerf srs? same shit scales on a ton of things making it easy to balloon numbers ( people did uber in a white 4l with srs just to prove this point btw so... +3 staves... no needed)

coc discharge? takes advantage of discharges high base damage and the fact that coc by passes its inherent slow to cast down side to scale damage high.

vaal spark? cheesing duration and soul gaining to turn what was supposed to be a short lived damage boost into a 100% up time monster.




there is an obvious pattern here. op stuff , be stuff that can get high damage for peanuts.
or put another way. they are op because ggg gave them too many ways to scale. That in the end is the real villan here


too many ways to scale things. too many gems . too many mechanics , too many passives too many more multipliers too many double dipping too many stacking mechanics. too fucking many.


it is so bad in some cases if ggg were to simply half the base damage of every skill in the game we would still have this issue. heck for some they would quarter it and we would still have a problem because of scaling.