I realized this game is even worse than Diablo 3

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mark1030 wrote:

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erbermejo wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

I remember 15 years ago playing Diablo 2 for the first time. After playing for a while I got stuck. I went online with my dial up modem and found a ton of information (Chaos Sanctuary) about how the game worked. I then found fan sites where people had made guides on different builds.

What has changed so much where people are now incapable of searching for answers and tips and mechanics? It's so much easier today than 15 years ago. Internet is exponentially faster and has search tools galore. I just don't get the mentality that expects everything spoonfed to players for fear of them quitting. If they are the type of players who quit because google is hard, then they aren't really long term players anyway.

Life style is faster and harder, people have less free time than before, there is more games out there to look at it than before, people dont want to spend their free time doing research, people got bored of old stuff u know and want new/better ways of things to be done. U cant expect old things succeed in modern days and thats lazy as fuck tbh. You know its about playing the fucking game and having fun right? or im wrong?

Funny, because those are all the reasons I like this game. Games that spoonfeed you get boring very quickly. Isn't that kind of game the kind that's lazy? Make it good enough to get people to spend $30-50 on it and then you don't care if they quit after a week?

well lets see,
Should we make diferent loot tables for diferent lvl areas? no just drop the same low lvl shit wherever they are....
Should we make a system where people that complete/clean full all t1 maps are able to open t2 maps untill they clean all t2 maps in order to open t3 maps and so on? nah make it random dops....
should we make a good crafting system where people can actually expect what they got in return for their investment? nah just make it random....

I see that as a lazy people that shield themselves behind rng.

Im not saying you should find t1 uniques every 100h, but, i already spent 800hours in this game and didnt see a t1 unique drop so far (low lvl unique items in endgame content? a fucking ton of them), or linked a 6 link item, or crafted a ''good'' item my self. People quit much before and thats why this game have less and less players every month because old players got bored and stop playing, new players strugle to succed due hidden mechanics, lack of info, bad drops etc. Thats why they rush to spit new content to bring back people while failing to see core game flaws. Thats my point of view
Edit: typo because my english suck

Now you've switched the argument from game knowledge to the loot system. Two different things that have nothing to do with one another.

people dont see what they dont want to see.

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new players strugle to succed due hidden mechanics, lack of info, bad drops etc. Thats why they rush to spit new content

anyway im done here, have fun and gl

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mark1030 wrote:

Now you've switched the argument from game knowledge to the loot system. Two different things that have nothing to do with one another.

They are actually directly tied to one another. Game knowledge results in more loot drops. A new player will not know to run a 4 link item independent build that can also stack MF, nor will they know to run with a culler party if possible in maps so that they are not wasting currency.

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erbermejo wrote:

people dont see what they dont want to see.

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new players strugle to succed due hidden mechanics, lack of info, bad drops etc. Thats why they rush to spit new content

anyway im done here, have fun and gl

Your argument is bogus since everyone started as a new player. Yes it takes time to learn the ropes but that is what makes this game rewarding. Take that away and it loses all it's charm. It loses it's identity. Making the game easier to cater for a larger audience, is the wrong way to follow.

I think EVE online offers a similar cutthroat gameworld.

Like many of these replies in the thread, I play solo self-found, any gear traded was given to me by one or two friends who don't even play any more.

At first, I used to get stuck around level 60, but now I realised all I need is max resists and some hp, coupled with one of many fotm skills and I got by, which is achievable with blues.

In a few years I've played, I managed to self-find all the stuff I needed for a facebreaker build (and amassed a few other useful uniques), but honestly, it was my EK character with crap gear that got me there.

I think the issue is that people will look for youtube vids (I was one), see something like 1.6million dps wander, and think that's where we all need to be. I'll probably never achieve that in my self-found gameplay, but its not like I haven't tried some of the higher maps and cleared them.

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erbermejo wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

I remember 15 years ago playing Diablo 2 for the first time. After playing for a while I got stuck. I went online with my dial up modem and found a ton of information (Chaos Sanctuary) about how the game worked. I then found fan sites where people had made guides on different builds.

What has changed so much where people are now incapable of searching for answers and tips and mechanics? It's so much easier today than 15 years ago. Internet is exponentially faster and has search tools galore. I just don't get the mentality that expects everything spoonfed to players for fear of them quitting. If they are the type of players who quit because google is hard, then they aren't really long term players anyway.

Life style is faster and harder, people have less free time than before, there is more games out there to look at it than before, people dont want to spend their free time doing research, people got bored of old stuff u know and want new/better ways of things to be done. U cant expect old things succeed in modern days and thats lazy as fuck tbh. You know its about playing the fucking game and having fun right? or im wrong?

these types of arguments are precisely why games are so dumbed down nowadays. big companies lacking balls to let the player handle complexity, big companies lacking balls to innovate and risk their moneyz, big companies trying to cater to the widest audience possible, to an audience that wants instant gratification

when companies have to basically chew for gamers and wipe their asses how does one expect for any complex games to be born ?

it's a fucking miracle PoE even exists.

the 'people have less time' argument is always the one that gets me too. if you have less time, don't invest it into a game that requires time and knowledge and work put in. if people don't have time and want to have a satisfying 'reading session' for a night, they don't pick up war and peace to read- they'd probably choose a short story instead. similarly, there is zero reason to try to fit a game like poe to follow the near-ubiquitous 'short playing session with little learning curve and high instant gratification' mantra. moreover, people have dual monitors and they can look shit up without even alt-tabbing. it's kinda like saying people dont have time so they have to believe anything that is written on internet, without checking snopes and doing extensive research before actually believing. so to me, its just a dumb reason to camouflage the real reason - which is wanting instant gratification and being hand-held for some reason unbeknownst to me.

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grepman wrote:

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erbermejo wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

I remember 15 years ago playing Diablo 2 for the first time. After playing for a while I got stuck. I went online with my dial up modem and found a ton of information (Chaos Sanctuary) about how the game worked. I then found fan sites where people had made guides on different builds.

What has changed so much where people are now incapable of searching for answers and tips and mechanics? It's so much easier today than 15 years ago. Internet is exponentially faster and has search tools galore. I just don't get the mentality that expects everything spoonfed to players for fear of them quitting. If they are the type of players who quit because google is hard, then they aren't really long term players anyway.

Life style is faster and harder, people have less free time than before, there is more games out there to look at it than before, people dont want to spend their free time doing research, people got bored of old stuff u know and want new/better ways of things to be done. U cant expect old things succeed in modern days and thats lazy as fuck tbh. You know its about playing the fucking game and having fun right? or im wrong?

these types of arguments are precisely why games are so dumbed down nowadays. big companies lacking balls to let the player handle complexity, big companies lacking balls to innovate and risk their moneyz, big companies trying to cater to the widest audience possible, to an audience that wants instant gratification

when companies have to basically chew for gamers and wipe their asses how does one expect for any complex games to be born ?

it's a fucking miracle PoE even exists.

the 'people have less time' argument is always the one that gets me too. if you have less time, don't invest it into a game that requires time and knowledge and work put in. if people don't have time and want to have a satisfying 'reading session' for a night, they don't pick up war and peace to read- they'd probably choose a short story instead. similarly, there is zero reason to try to fit a game like poe to follow the near-ubiquitous 'short playing session with little learning curve and high instant gratification' mantra. moreover, people have dual monitors and they can look shit up without even alt-tabbing. it's kinda like saying people dont have time so they have to believe anything that is written on internet, without checking snopes and doing extensive research before actually believing. so to me, its just a dumb reason to camouflage the real reason - which is wanting instant gratification and being hand-held for some reason unbeknownst to me.

oh c'mon.. games are easy and people want easy? so why the most prevalent type of game currently is a MUTLIPLAYER game where player has to handle other players and not some bots/AI?

these games are A LOT more complex than poe (despite poe looking complex due to no manual and pretty much everything being random)

the most difficult games are these with clear and simple rules yet with incredibly deep gameplay: civilization, chess, competetive fps shooters, go. do not compare arpg one-click to these games. it is very easy to be good at poe (trade manipulation and build copying skills are pretty much all that is required). try to get into quakeworld scene and be good at it with similar effort. good luck

poe went too far with 'lear everything yourselves, suckers' but it needed to as writing manuals takes time and money and they wanted to spend it elsewhere. it is true that almost all is visible and can be deducted but it is 'almost' not 'everything' and that missing bit causes new players to fail. why is fireball 'created to suck' skill? how a new player is to know that?

lets put it that way. you have a james joyce novel and a dan brown novel.
if you read a james joyce novel, you'd need a dictionary to fully understand every single sentence, unless you're a literature major.

anyone can understand dan brown novels

people who cannot deal with james joyce's writing complexity simply don't bother to read his stuff and read their more accessible stuff instead. so, there's no problem.

the problem is when it comes to video games and poe, for some reason people who like their dan brown of games, think that poe should cater to them as well and complain. why ?

youre not gonna go and tell james joyce to do it the new way and not the old way (ok, admittedly hard for that to happen aside from time machine shenaningans)

this is why 'I dont have time' arguments don't work. some people enjoy complexity and some people enjoy exploring thinhs for themselves. a ton of things in life require a ton of dedication and hard work to learn. there are games with so little learning curve that you can literally pick it up and play. and there are some that require tons of research, theorycrafting and understanding of the game, including from external sources.

wanting ALL games to follow just one model because you (and its YOU, not 'people') don't want to do research is both illogical and selfish. if you don't want to do research, why even play poe ? do you want to play EVE without research ? do you want to play age of decadence without research ? some games are complex, large in scale and consist of tons of details that are impossible all to include in games. if they arent for you, it's not a huge deal- but wanting to dumb down the games for everyone is so incredibly selfish it makes me indignant.

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sidtherat wrote:

oh c'mon.. games are easy and people want easy? so why the most prevalent type of game currently is a MUTLIPLAYER game where player has to handle other players and not some bots/AI?

these games are A LOT more complex than poe (despite poe looking complex due to no manual and pretty much everything being random)

the most difficult games are these with clear and simple rules yet with incredibly deep gameplay: civilization, chess, competetive fps shooters, go. do not compare arpg one-click to these games. it is very easy to be good at poe (trade manipulation and build copying skills are pretty much all that is required). try to get into quakeworld scene and be good at it with similar effort. good luck

poe went too far with 'lear everything yourselves, suckers' but it needed to as writing manuals takes time and money and they wanted to spend it elsewhere. it is true that almost all is visible and can be deducted but it is 'almost' not 'everything' and that missing bit causes new players to fail. why is fireball 'created to suck' skill? how a new player is to know that?

Im not saying poe is 'hard' and nowhere I ever said that - you completely missed my point, by miles.

I'm saying people are fucking lazy and want to learn as little as possible in the shortest amount of time possible in order to start playing/mastering a game. People for some reason tend to not like long learning curves.

[also, there is no such thing as too much of 'learn everything, suckers' to me. duke nukem 3d - one of the greatest games ever made imo- simply dropped you off with a gun. a game shouldnt explain anything, in my opinion. similarly how a book shouldn't explain the meaning of its words or phrases. the less, the better. show, don't tell.]

the problem is nowadays people shun the greatest thing in games- trial and error. they generally want OTHER people to do the trial and error of exploring/testing and finding things out. but not even finding out information through second hand trial/error is good enouhg anymore- now people DEMAND having it explained in game. WTF ? how much hand holding and explanation can there be ? and WHY ? why do you need a set of all rules and details of the game explained IN GAME in order to play it ?

using the 'I dont have time to learn all that shit' is just a poor argument for not wanting to learn things. not only in-game by trial/error, but even simply looking at wiki, which takes milliseconds.

my take is - if one is so lazy to shun not only trial/error but even getting information from two clicks away, then it's probably best he/she doesnt play any game where importance of knowledge/information is high.

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why is fireball 'created to suck' skill? how a new player is to know that?

that is so subjective, but ok I'll bite. same answer as before- trial and error. if you dont have time for trial and error, you can look up how the skills compare and it's not hard to see why fireball doesnt measure up to some other skills once you grasp the mechanics and look at different spells.

that isn't much different from the way single-player CRPGS worked back in the day. some of them had really shitty skills and some of them had godly skills. you still could finish the game with shitty skills but your experience with them would be drastically different than if youve played with op skills.

if you are concerned with your build being shit in any game and are afraid to brick things, theres tons of info online. which one should utilize for a game like poe, where players learn something new every day, almost literally.