...the build that can stack the most multipliers with the highest base - wins...
...it is just math...
...i do think that other skills are fun, but...
...there is no real reason to play these builds except for the untangible 'fun'...
I see where we differ. I don't think POE is a game you can 'win'.
If I'm not having fun, then it's a job, not a game. I enjoy my job, so why should I play a game for anything other than more fun?
BTW: I consider trading to be unfun, must agree with the OP on that. Oh well, to each his own.
well. first things first: i play this game to slay mobs in fun way. so please consider that my arguments presented in this thread are more representation of 'general belief' than my own stance
poe (in developers opinion) is a game about acquiring loot and getting stronger via trading, careful planning and slaying monsters (sadly in this order)
in short - it is a game that rewards 'loot per second' while neglecting stuff like style, originality etc
loot per second differs for various builds. differs STRONGLY. and while ofc you cannot 'win' in this game, you can definitely loose in it
start a fireball witch (just like the game suggests you to do) and try to get self found to lvl 70. it wont be easy. not at all. now try the same with flame totem. this is the 'fun' - you are pretty much guaranteed to fail certain builds (that SHOULD be viable as there is NOTHING in the game that suggests these are crap by design) while several builds/concepts are just difficult to screw up. the discrepancy is there and it is really huge
to play with the 'fun' builds (fireball example again) you need a serious gear. gear you have very little chance of finding yourself (by design..) so you have to trade for it. and we are at 'loot per second' again. if you want to play a fun non-cookie cutter build you have to have cash (or farm for years for that few good pieces). you wont have it playing a build that cannot reach maps because it faces a gear wall at 50 or 60. so you are pretty much forced to play something cookie-cutter'ishy (no gear req, over-the-top damage, one-click wonder)
and it is really difficult to play a slow character after seeing what a tornado shot crit ranger can do. i know that infernal blow is fun and i love the playstyle but it takes me 4 times as long to clear a map.. it is somewhere in the back of my head. i just remember how stupid easy (and effective with sick 'loot per second') certain builds are
and i blame ggg for creating these builds on purpose
...the build that can stack the most multipliers with the highest base - wins...
...it is just math...
...i do think that other skills are fun, but...
...there is no real reason to play these builds except for the untangible 'fun'...
I see where we differ. I don't think POE is a game you can 'win'.
If I'm not having fun, then it's a job, not a game. I enjoy my job, so why should I play a game for anything other than more fun?
BTW: I consider trading to be unfun, must agree with the OP on that. Oh well, to each his own.
well. first things first: i play this game to slay mobs in fun way. so please consider that my arguments presented in this thread are more representation of 'general belief' than my own stance
poe (in developers opinion) is a game about acquiring loot and getting stronger via trading, careful planning and slaying monsters (sadly in this order)
in short - it is a game that rewards 'loot per second' while neglecting stuff like style, originality etc
loot per second differs for various builds. differs STRONGLY. and while ofc you cannot 'win' in this game, you can definitely loose in it
start a fireball witch (just like the game suggests you to do) and try to get self found to lvl 70. it wont be easy. not at all. now try the same with flame totem. this is the 'fun' - you are pretty much guaranteed to fail certain builds (that SHOULD be viable as there is NOTHING in the game that suggests these are crap by design) while several builds/concepts are just difficult to screw up. the discrepancy is there and it is really huge
to play with the 'fun' builds (fireball example again) you need a serious gear. gear you have very little chance of finding yourself (by design..) so you have to trade for it. and we are at 'loot per second' again. if you want to play a fun non-cookie cutter build you have to have cash (or farm for years for that few good pieces). you wont have it playing a build that cannot reach maps because it faces a gear wall at 50 or 60. so you are pretty much forced to play something cookie-cutter'ishy (no gear req, over-the-top damage, one-click wonder)
and it is really difficult to play a slow character after seeing what a tornado shot crit ranger can do. i know that infernal blow is fun and i love the playstyle but it takes me 4 times as long to clear a map.. it is somewhere in the back of my head. i just remember how stupid easy (and effective with sick 'loot per second') certain builds are
and i blame ggg for creating these builds on purpose
i used to kill atziri with storm call witch in 3 days with self found gear in temp leagues.(before 2.0) How popular is storm call? Not popular at all. But in temp leagues its amazing skill to kill atziri with budget gear. Cause atziri is rareeely moving. No doubt that i can kill atziri in new temp league in 4 days. Cause in rampage league i started killing her at 4th day with ice spear witch. Its not me who is superior, you gotta communicate yourself with other players to learn this game. 90% of my knowledge about this game is 'stolen' from other players.
in 1.3 i tried ball lightning with self found gear, clear speed was amazing. crit bow rangers are very squishy and very vulnerable to reflect. Im using crit bow ranger with top gear(i have best bow in the game etc) at the moment and its not that amazing as you think.
"You have great power. You're right to be proud. It's unfortunate you have to die now, but I will honor you with 45% of my strength."
Last edited by Rupenus on Nov 27, 2015, 6:39:46 AM
Okay, so other than the "OP's arguments are easily toppled strawmen" thing which has been literally beaten to death at this point, the other thing I'm getting off this thread is "rate of progression isn't fast enough."
Now, here's the thing: if you're seriously wound up in how quickly you're progressing through a game (or movie, or TV series, etc), chances are you've already stopped having fun entirely. It's kind of like having sex, and hearing your partner say "are you almost done?" -- it immediately indicates that someone, quite strangely, doesn't want things to keep going for a good, long time. If you are actually having fun, then why in the name of RNGesus would want to get finished sooner?
So when I see comments along the lines of "progression in this game is way too slow," what I usually see in my head is someone trapped deep enough in a Skinner box that they don't really know what they're saying. I see someone who isn't having fun, but is possessed by a strange, most likely addictive impulse to continue to slog through things anyway, under some kind of self-lie that when they reach whatever arbitrary goalpost they've set up for themselves that the game will magically change from tedium to some kind of fun which was utterly hidden up until that point.
Um, no. This basically never happens. If the game isn't fun for you before you acquire X, it almost certainly won't be fun for you after you acquire X.
Naturally, it is those players exactly, who find the game unfun but somehow delude themselves into thinking it will be fun (if only they'd ever find Shangri-La), who are the most pissed off. They're trying so hard to make the game fun for them, and the game just stubbornly refuses to cooperate. It's traumatic to the point of causing actual, no-fooling insanity in otherwise sane forumers.
Which is sad.
But just to allow for more precise and accurate speech, almost every time progression rates are brought up, the real issue underlying everything actually has very little to do with progression, and a lot more to do with the sheer joy of slaying monsters. Or lack thereof. From the poster's perspective, of course.
This is such a ridiculous assertion.
There's a massive difference in how a bow character plays when they have a shitty non-crit bow versus when they are able to get their hands on a 300 pdps crit bow. One blasts through the game and can farm at rapid speeds while the other one is complete trash and can't even kill certain rare modifier combinations. One is obviously and clearly going to be more fun than the other one.
And alot of us like certain mechanics in the game, but still believe that the game is not anywhere near as rewarding as it should be. We enjoy slaying monsters, but we also enjoy getting rewarded for it, especially when many of us are playing hardcore, slaying some of the toughest monsters in the game, and then get greeted by a pile of useless blue items. Your post comes off as one of those jackass managers at work that basically says "WELL IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE JOB AND THE SHIT REWARDS THAT COME WITH IT, GO DO SOMETHING ELSE," which is not just ultra condescending, but just straight comes off as through you're being an asshat because you clearly think you're right and everyone else is wrong.
Last edited by allbusiness on Nov 27, 2015, 9:10:03 PM
Okay, so other than the "OP's arguments are easily toppled strawmen" thing which has been literally beaten to death at this point, the other thing I'm getting off this thread is "rate of progression isn't fast enough."
Now, here's the thing: if you're seriously wound up in how quickly you're progressing through a game (or movie, or TV series, etc), chances are you've already stopped having fun entirely. It's kind of like having sex, and hearing your partner say "are you almost done?" -- it immediately indicates that someone, quite strangely, doesn't want things to keep going for a good, long time. If you are actually having fun, then why in the name of RNGesus would want to get finished sooner?
So when I see comments along the lines of "progression in this game is way too slow," what I usually see in my head is someone trapped deep enough in a Skinner box that they don't really know what they're saying. I see someone who isn't having fun, but is possessed by a strange, most likely addictive impulse to continue to slog through things anyway, under some kind of self-lie that when they reach whatever arbitrary goalpost they've set up for themselves that the game will magically change from tedium to some kind of fun which was utterly hidden up until that point.
Um, no. This basically never happens. If the game isn't fun for you before you acquire X, it almost certainly won't be fun for you after you acquire X.
Naturally, it is those players exactly, who find the game unfun but somehow delude themselves into thinking it will be fun (if only they'd ever find Shangri-La), who are the most pissed off. They're trying so hard to make the game fun for them, and the game just stubbornly refuses to cooperate. It's traumatic to the point of causing actual, no-fooling insanity in otherwise sane forumers.
Which is sad.
But just to allow for more precise and accurate speech, almost every time progression rates are brought up, the real issue underlying everything actually has very little to do with progression, and a lot more to do with the sheer joy of slaying monsters. Or lack thereof. From the poster's perspective, of course.
This is such a ridiculous assertion.
There's a massive difference in how a bow character plays when they have a shitty non-crit bow versus when they are able to get their hands on a 300 pdps crit bow. One blasts through the game and can farm at rapid speeds while the other one is complete trash and can't even kill certain rare modifier combinations. One is obviously and clearly going to be more fun than the other one.
Not really. If you find fast clearspeeds to be fun, then what you should probably be doing with a "shitty non-crit bow" is farming lower level content such that you can maintain a fast clearspeed. Usually this means areas like Merciless Ledge/Fellshrine/Docks/Lake instead of actual maps; unless you're going self-found a bow which handles that content well is very affordable. On the other hand, if you like the challenge of monsters which die slower, you can go that route too, but again it should be fun guiding you. In short, your point is inaccurate, because it assumes the content you face up against is not at the player's discretion, when it is.
And alot of us like certain mechanics in the game, but still believe that the game is not anywhere near as rewarding as it should be. We enjoy slaying monsters, but we also enjoy getting rewarded for it, especially when many of us are playing hardcore, slaying some of the toughest monsters in the game, and then get greeted by a pile of useless blue items. Your post comes off as one of those jackass managers at work that basically says "WELL IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE JOB AND THE SHIT REWARDS THAT COME WITH IT, GO DO SOMETHING ELSE," which is not just ultra condescending, but just straight comes off as through you're being an asshat because you clearly think you're right and everyone else is wrong.
The original point I was making is: when people say the problem is progression, what they normally really mean is that the problem is enjoyment. Note that the word "problem" in both the "before" and "after" portions of that statement; my belief that the problem is not being described accurately does not mean I believe there isn't one. If someone plays Path of Exile, fully expecting to enjoy it, and ends up not enjoying it, that's precisely the type of situation where feedback should be very much encouraged.
So if your implication is that I'm telling anyone "if you don't like it, shut up and move on," then no, not at all. I'm telling them: if they don't like it, please, tell us what you didn't enjoy yourself.
And then wait a little bit. Who knows what changes your feedback might bring.
But then, if nothing important changes for you... yeah, move on. Because in all seriousness, if you do not like your job and the rewards which come with it, and your employer isn't willing to make adjustments to make you happy, you should be finding a job which will.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Nov 28, 2015, 1:39:49 AM
It's entirely okay to not be one of the players the game was meant for and just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's an objectively worse or bad game. (Likewise, just because you do like it doesn't mean it's an objectively better or good game). Yes, it might be daunting to start off on some games (including PoE) but that huge amount of information to process and use is one of the things that attracts some people to the game and keeps us here.
If you find any game is not really that fun for you, think about why it isn't. Sometimes it's something easy to fix like a quality of life improvement. Other times it can be a fundamental mismatch of expectations versus reality. Always make sure to voice what your expectations are versus what you're encountering in the game. And then make sure to be patient and realize some things take time to change while other things are so core to the game that they can't be changed.
Consider whether it's a worthwhile investment to complain about certain things in the game versus finding something else to occupy and entertain you that is more likely to work.
Okay, so other than the "OP's arguments are easily toppled strawmen" thing which has been literally beaten to death at this point, the other thing I'm getting off this thread is "rate of progression isn't fast enough."
Now, here's the thing: if you're seriously wound up in how quickly you're progressing through a game (or movie, or TV series, etc), chances are you've already stopped having fun entirely. It's kind of like having sex, and hearing your partner say "are you almost done?" -- it immediately indicates that someone, quite strangely, doesn't want things to keep going for a good, long time. If you are actually having fun, then why in the name of RNGesus would want to get finished sooner?
So when I see comments along the lines of "progression in this game is way too slow," what I usually see in my head is someone trapped deep enough in a Skinner box that they don't really know what they're saying. I see someone who isn't having fun, but is possessed by a strange, most likely addictive impulse to continue to slog through things anyway, under some kind of self-lie that when they reach whatever arbitrary goalpost they've set up for themselves that the game will magically change from tedium to some kind of fun which was utterly hidden up until that point.
Um, no. This basically never happens. If the game isn't fun for you before you acquire X, it almost certainly won't be fun for you after you acquire X.
Naturally, it is those players exactly, who find the game unfun but somehow delude themselves into thinking it will be fun (if only they'd ever find Shangri-La), who are the most pissed off. They're trying so hard to make the game fun for them, and the game just stubbornly refuses to cooperate. It's traumatic to the point of causing actual, no-fooling insanity in otherwise sane forumers.
Which is sad.
But just to allow for more precise and accurate speech, almost every time progression rates are brought up, the real issue underlying everything actually has very little to do with progression, and a lot more to do with the sheer joy of slaying monsters. Or lack thereof. From the poster's perspective, of course.
I see this line of thought frequently and view it as a fundamental misunderstanding of what attracts and retains players in the ARPG genre. The original D3 team was notorious for assuming that prolonged "item hunt" (the unreachable carrot) drove ARPG gameplay.
"item hunt" is a crutch. The game has to be fun even if you have all of the items. In fact it should be more fun when you have more items. Why? Because the sheer joy of slaying monsters is directly related to progression. Finding new items, climbing up map tiers, leveling new skills, adding quality to new skills, reaching passives/keystones that are further away - all of these things alter existing gameplay experiences or facilitate new gameplay experiences.
An ARPG can be thought of as one giant toybox. If progression is too slow, i.e. if the time before finding a new toy to play with is too long, a player can get bored. This can be an issue in PoE, where build-enabling uniques (or build-enabling rare weapons, like a well rolled crit bow) are locked behind staggering RNG and reward paradigms that are balanced to reign in extreme outlier farming behavior, like 6 player iir/iiq culling and double beyond ghost busting.
Without even talking about player satisfaction, equitable reward, and perceived fairness, as a baseline it should be understood that prolonged engagement in an ARPG is driven by how many toys you have, how different the toys are, how fun the toys are to play with, how long a single toy or combination of toys can sustain entertainment, and how frequently the toys (and/or play environment) are changed/replaced/upgraded.
To complain about slow progression negatively impacting your enjoyment is totally consistent with that.
Never underestimate what the mod community can do for PoE if you sell an offline client.
"item hunt" is a crutch. The game has to be fun even if you have all of the items. In fact it should be more fun when you have more items.
Totally with you on the part I put in bold.
What's interesting is where you go with it after that. I went in more of a "it should be fun when you don't have the items yet, too" direction. Which I think has some truth to it.
However, that really gets me thinking. As gear wealth increases, how should fun be changing? Increase? Decrease?
I'd have to think about it for a bit to be honest, it's a new idea for me, but my gut reaction is: neither. My feel here is that the game should go from simple fun to complicated fun, following a learning curve where players are still learning mechanics in the beginning and ready for some weird near the end. However, one of the key features of gear-based progression is that gameplay tends to get less challenging and more boring as one gears up on the same content, as they progress from perhaps undergeared extra-challenge, to appropriately geared, to overgeared autopilot mode. So it almost seems as if the system itself has some inherent resistance to what I think the right answer should be.
I'll have to grant you one thing: if an ARPG designer has to make an imprecise decision, it's much better to err on the side of better gear being more fun than otherwise. I mean, if better gear is somehow less fun, well, that just takes the joy out of loot. I don't think it's wise for designers to overdo this, and backload all of the fun so the game is a total drag until you're lucky/perseverant enough to get the shiny toys, but having it frontloaded would be even worse.
Hmm. I'll be pondering this.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Nov 28, 2015, 6:25:19 AM
I remember 15 years ago playing Diablo 2 for the first time. After playing for a while I got stuck. I went online with my dial up modem and found a ton of information (Chaos Sanctuary) about how the game worked. I then found fan sites where people had made guides on different builds.
What has changed so much where people are now incapable of searching for answers and tips and mechanics? It's so much easier today than 15 years ago. Internet is exponentially faster and has search tools galore. I just don't get the mentality that expects everything spoonfed to players for fear of them quitting. If they are the type of players who quit because google is hard, then they aren't really long term players anyway.
Life style is faster and harder, people have less free time than before, there is more games out there to look at it than before, people dont want to spend their free time doing research, people got bored of old stuff u know and want new/better ways of things to be done. U cant expect old things succeed in modern days and thats lazy as fuck tbh. You know its about playing the fucking game and having fun right? or im wrong?
Last edited by erbermejo on Nov 28, 2015, 9:39:49 AM
I remember 15 years ago playing Diablo 2 for the first time. After playing for a while I got stuck. I went online with my dial up modem and found a ton of information (Chaos Sanctuary) about how the game worked. I then found fan sites where people had made guides on different builds.
What has changed so much where people are now incapable of searching for answers and tips and mechanics? It's so much easier today than 15 years ago. Internet is exponentially faster and has search tools galore. I just don't get the mentality that expects everything spoonfed to players for fear of them quitting. If they are the type of players who quit because google is hard, then they aren't really long term players anyway.
Life style is faster and harder, people have less free time than before, there is more games out there to look at it than before, people dont want to spend their free time doing research, people got bored of old stuff u know and want new/better ways of things to be done. U cant expect old things succeed in modern days and thats lazy as fuck tbh. You know its about playing the fucking game and having fun right? or im wrong?
Funny, because those are all the reasons I like this game. Games that spoonfeed you get boring very quickly. Isn't that kind of game the kind that's lazy? Make it good enough to get people to spend $30-50 on it and then you don't care if they quit after a week?
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