Rebalance Crit damage and the mechanics. (RT vs Crit + Poison Arrow)

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goetzjam wrote:

On what bosses though? Typically if you are doing something like a shrine map you put a lightning pot or two on either before or swap before the last few mobs before her so you can fill them. If you can't kill her in 2-4 flask charge useage your build has other issues.

weither your build has issue or not , it still an advantage , a lot of boss dont have a huge amount of adds that can refill your flask at the same pace as surgeon

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goetzjam wrote:

Crit investment isn't free. When the game was designed stuff like this was decided based off of the investment and sacrifices builds would have to due in order to get them. In addition it was probably mainly does as such so that SPELL BUILDS can apply those aliments, attacks were probably a side effect. As much as you view as it not being "fair" for RT builds to have to invest into it, spell builds are already suffering in 2.0 (except you know incinerate, which isn't a spell that can crit anyway) so suggesting they get nerfed further is just asinine.

Game evolve , things change, yes crit isnt free but I think now, its cost does not justify free ailments... accuracy isnt even hard to get by now and I think i'm mostly speccing RT when doing a templar or marauder because base crit on most weapon suck and crit is almost inexistant on the left side of the tree, its a no brainer unless your are going staff. Spell caster dont even have to deal with accuracy

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goetzjam wrote:

Much like people think that crit chance shouldn't be as high as it is they don't understand that status aliments being attached with crit as well is a design choice that is as old as the game is. No legit arguments have EVER been made to change it, which is why it hasn't been changed.

That is not because something was thought to be that way initially that it should stay like that.
As for the legit argument, I brought good ones, the only argument you use for refuting mine is that crit isnt free and that it always been like that...

nothing is free in that game , you have to do compromise... dps vs survibility,etc ,etc, problem is crit have it all:

-greater dps
-accuracy is trivial to get nowadays
-free status ailement
-one of the best flask recharge mode
-better leech with vaal pact

with barely any downside


PS : btw I'm not asking to nerf crit to the ground just small iteration about removing free status ailments they get

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weither your build has issue or not , it still an advantage , a lot of boss dont have a huge amount of adds that can refill your flask at the same pace as surgeon

I'm saying you should be able to do all map bosses (sans maybe malachai) without refilling your flask at all. In terms of the same rate, you can invest into flask charges gained\duration or reduced charges used. Even a unique belt that was somewhat popular in the past. Plus without the surgeon mod you gain the ability to roll things to increase the recovery directly on it as well.

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Game evolve , things change, yes crit isnt free but I think now, its cost does not justify free ailments... accuracy isnt even hard to get by now and I think i'm mostly speccing RT when doing a templar or marauder because base crit on most weapon suck and crit is almost inexistant on the left side of the tree, its a no brainer unless your are going staff. Spell caster dont even have to deal with accuracy

Spell casters might not have to deal with accuracy, but they still have to spec into crit chance and in this meta have very shitty defensive options, especially in terms of leech\sustain. In terms of accuracy\crit nodes located on the tree, that was by design, you can go 2 handed crit on the left side of the tree, especially staff as it aligns with the design of the characters, the right side of the tree obviously is designed for crit bows and 1 handed weapons.

You make it seem like taking RT is a negative thing, when it is very much a positive thing if you aren't going to invest into accuracy and crit chance, following your logic presented here it isn't fair that builds can completely ignore accuracy without anymore of an investment then just 1 point.

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That is not because something was thought to be that way initially that it should stay like that.
As for the legit argument, I brought good ones, the only argument you use for refuting mine is that crit isnt free and that it always been like that...

If GGG did not find reasoning for changing this in the last 3 years when crit was in better spot then it is now they aren't going to change it based on the arguments u've made here, which are no different then any other crit QQ thread ever.

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nothing is free in that game , you have to do compromise... dps vs survibility,etc ,etc, problem is crit have it all:

This statement is just wrong.

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-greater dps

kinda the largest point of going crit in any game, why you mention it here is kinda pointless.

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-accuracy is trivial to get nowadays

Is it? Show me this trivial to get build that makes accuracy not be an issue, its more then just 1 stat on 1 piece.

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-free status ailement

Keep using that word free, when you know it isn't.

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-one of the best flask recharge mode

Flask charges are temp bonuses that don't provide a stronger bonus just because you can spam them. If you build around it you can spam them in almost any build.

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-better leech with vaal pact

LOL, if you are talking about the gloves sure, but leech in general is dog shit now. Funny argument you make here.

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with barely any downside

Yeah I mean the areas with crit don't have less life, less armor, less leech options, less regen. Clearly thats not enough of a downside. Having to worry about getting the most out of pieces, specifically weapons isn't a downside. /s

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PS : btw I'm not asking to nerf crit to the ground just small iteration about removing free status ailments they get

That isn't a small nerf and spell based status aliments are never OP in any circumstance, if your issue is with attack based status aliments then differentiate the two, its clear you can't lump them together.

Took a quick peak at your characters the only crit character you have listed is a bow character that isn't even utilizing the features you are complaining about here for crit, if its so good then why on earth wouldn't you be abusing it. (hint its because you haven't played it and just are looking at the "sheet") and saying on paper the differences.


Wanted to add that if you or anyone is serious about removing status aliments from crit that every single spell will have to have a native chance to apply a status aliments, literally talking about rebalancing every spell (except incinerete) in the game to "nerf crit"

Wow, have you actualy played RT or Crit build?

RT use weapons whit 400-600 base damage and crit weapons like dagers use weapons whit 80-250 damage. You do understand how mach crit chance one need to actualy gain consistant benefit of Crit multu? You do understand how mach accuracy invesment a crit build need apart crit, crit multu?

Also most broken thing in this game are the auras and Heralds on kill effects when you compere what build got the edge in cleer speed.
Ther are so broker legacy or uniq and unbalance points to some aspect secondary effect of bow skills pared whit on kill effcts and auras are one of most broken for what i seen.

For flask i dont realy see how a flask mod is OP compered to uniq flask or some other flask mod if you can make realy good use of them?

I think the flask recovery from crit is pretty op, it obviously depends on the build something like coc or crit mjolner having the largest advantage particularly for bosses. this could easily be compensated by a good flask recovery node between perhaps templar and marauder.
Otherwise it seems to me that rt melee seeems better then crit at the moment my cyclone disfavour marauder just mows through nearly anything, my crit cyclone ranger with a mirrored weapon and only 4400 life has much more difficulty in 2.0 .

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I'm saying you should be able to do all map bosses (sans maybe malachai) without refilling your flask at all. In terms of the same rate, you can invest into flask charges gained\duration or reduced charges used. Even a unique belt that was somewhat popular in the past. Plus without the surgeon mod you gain the ability to roll things to increase the recovery directly on it as well.

I agree that all boss should be done without refilling your flask

the point is that with crit only a mod is need where else you need to spec skill/gear accordingly

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Spell casters might not have to deal with accuracy, but they still have to spec into crit chance and in this meta have very shitty defensive options, especially in terms of leech\sustain. In terms of accuracy\crit nodes located on the tree, that was by design, you can go 2 handed crit on the left side of the tree, especially staff as it aligns with the design of the characters, the right side of the tree obviously is designed for crit bows and 1 handed weapons.

You make it seem like taking RT is a negative thing, when it is very much a positive thing if you aren't going to invest into accuracy and crit chance, following your logic presented here it isn't fair that builds can completely ignore accuracy without anymore of an investment then just 1 point.

We all know leech is a problem accross the board right now, and I think one of the problem is that leech node on the tree are skewed toward physical (the % leech not increase % per second) and that is why caster and elemental dont spec for it on top of not having any in the top of the three

RT isnt a negative thing , its just that its a no brainer because no one will ever do a 2h crit build unless its a staff because the cost is too much

As for accuracy , just a couple of point into it on the tree with barely any accuracy on gear you can keep it at 90%+

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If GGG did not find reasoning for changing this in the last 3 years when crit was in better spot then it is now they aren't going to change it based on the arguments u've made here, which are no different then any other crit QQ thread ever.

And who tell you they are always right ?
Do you think the nerf to elemental proliferation was right ?
That the nerf to some unique are justifed now ? (IE Bringer of rain) ?
That they prefer releasing new gem without buffing older ones ?

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-greater dps


kinda the largest point of going crit in any game, why you mention it here is kinda pointless.

well when comparing to RT its not ;)

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-accuracy is trivial to get nowadays

Is it? Show me this trivial to get build that makes accuracy not be an issue, its more then just 1 stat on 1 piece.

like i said had no problem to keep my accuracy over 90% on all my build

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-free status ailement

Keep using that word free, when you know it isn't.

it is when in RT you need to have around 15-20% to be comfortable with applying them and its generally only on one element at a time
while you generally have 2-3 damage type when playing physical crit (hatred -hoa) and on crit all elemental status element are applied ... well comparing to RT , I call that free !!

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-one of the best flask recharge mode

Flask charges are temp bonuses that don't provide a stronger bonus just because you can spam them. If you build around it you can spam them in almost any build.

again one mod ... give you decent recharge were as non crit have to spec for them

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-better leech with vaal pact

LOL, if you are talking about the gloves sure, but leech in general is dog shit now. Funny argument you make here.

What I mean by that is bigger hit = less %leech needed to cap thus, which less investement your leech are better because you are doing more damage.

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with barely any downside

Yeah I mean the areas with crit don't have less life, less armor, less leech options, less regen. Clearly thats not enough of a downside. Having to worry about getting the most out of pieces, specifically weapons isn't a downside. /s

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Took a quick peak at your characters the only crit character you have listed is a bow character that isn't even utilizing the features you are complaining about here for crit, if its so good then why on earth wouldn't you be abusing it. (hint its because you haven't played it and just are looking at the "sheet") and saying on paper the differences.

I did various crit build , its just that my characters are all messed up and used for test and respec

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Wanted to add that if you or anyone is serious about removing status aliments from crit that every single spell will have to have a native chance to apply a status aliments, literally talking about rebalancing every spell (except incinerete) in the game to "nerf crit"

Not at all, generally as a spell caster you spec crit or you spec elemental node which include %chance to ignite/shock/freeze , I don't see any problem here , I do agree some spells need to be buffed , but it has nothing to do with status ailment ...

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I agree that all boss should be done without refilling your flask

the point is that with crit only a mod is need where else you need to spec skill/gear accordingly

And? What does that have to do with anything but the "super" single target bosses in the game. The ones that are actually done equally as well or better with builds that aren't crit, like PA, SRS, ect.

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We all know leech is a problem accross the board right now, and I think one of the problem is that leech node on the tree are skewed toward physical (the % leech not increase % per second) and that is why caster and elemental dont spec for it on top of not having any in the top of the three

I'd argue leech is less important and has always been in a better spot for physical attack builds. I don't think ele leech on the tree is absolutely necessary at this point, but it needs to work in such a way where its worth taking. They don't want people to face tank with leech, but against rares or things that take longer to kill (aside from bosses, of course thats another topic) it doesn't help, especially mana leech.

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RT isnt a negative thing , its just that its a no brainer because no one will ever do a 2h crit build unless its a staff because the cost is too much

It cost too much because 2 handed weapons don't naturally align with crit builds, they have subpar base crit chance, which is the foundation of making a successful crit build. It absolutely doesn't help that GGG removed eternal orbs and now the best way to craft a 2 handed weapon is very specific and the same basically no matter what base type you have, which includes bows to an extent.

In the dark shrine hc event right now you can get a 2 handed 500ish dps axe for 4-5 ex, find one of those for 1 handers, you simply can't. The best you can get for that price is a 340 dps 1 handed axe, that isn't crit either. Crit is required to makeup for the difference in damage that the larger 2 handed weapons provide. (if we are talking about attacks)

As for crit bows\wands they lack defensive options in this meta where we rarely see them, they've also fallen out of favor hard because the lack of endgame crafting options because of no eternals.

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As for accuracy , just a couple of point into it on the tree with barely any accuracy on gear you can keep it at 90%+

A couple as in 3 or more? Its been a decent bit since i've done it but IIRC I also needed around 500ish accuracy on gear, not counting weapon because they isn't reliable. Thats many points on the tree and many stats on gear, just to overcome one of the weaknesses of crit builds.

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And who tell you they are always right ?

They aren't. But its been 3 fucking years dude.

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Do you think the nerf to elemental proliferation was right ?

Clearly not, they overnerfed it along with various spells in the process, not to forget the addition of the new map mods that make spells even less effective.

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That the nerf to some unique are justifed now ? (IE Bringer of rain) ?

1st version was too strong, second version had too much block for their liking, but the 3rd version is pretty underpowered.

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That they prefer releasing new gem without buffing older ones ?

They've always done this. They did go back and touch shock nova (lol) Sometimes its hard to comeup with a "fix" for a gem created in a different era, why stop releasing newer ones that might fit better?

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well when comparing to RT its not ;)

You shouldn't be comparing RT to crit, its comparing apples to pineapples and this game is about differences, if every single option was always equal the game would be boring as fuck. I don't want to playstyle that D3 has where you just choose the XX skill for the XX class and it won't matter if that dude is a summoner or this dude does spells you will clear the same.

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like i said had no problem to keep my accuracy over 90% on all my build

I should just take your word for this?

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it is when in RT you need to have around 15-20% to be comfortable with applying them and its generally only on one element at a time
while you generally have 2-3 damage type when playing physical crit (hatred -hoa) and on crit all elemental status element are applied ... well comparing to RT , I call that free !!

They changed the way that they are applied, you have to actually do enough of the mobs HP in that element to actually get the effect. So you can't just have all the heralds and always apply all 3 on crit builds.

Running multiple heralds isn't free, having damage on gear isn't free.

Why on earth you are arguing with me in this meta where RT is actually better in multiple ways shows how clueless you are on the topic.

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again one mod ... give you decent recharge were as non crit have to spec for them

They have to give up a flask mod for that. They have to invest into damage MUCH more then an RT build in order to get anywhere near the damage, they have to have a really good weapon to clear. It isn't without investment.

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What I mean by that is bigger hit = less %leech needed to cap thus, which less investement your leech are better because you are doing more damage.

Crit builds typically hit faster and smaller...

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I did various crit build , its just that my characters are all messed up and used for test and respec

So before 2.0, you know the game has changed a lot and you making these claims without anything resembling recent experience is just basically talking out of your ass right now.

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Not at all, generally as a spell caster you spec crit or you spec elemental node which include %chance to ignite/shock/freeze , I don't see any problem here , I do agree some spells need to be buffed , but it has nothing to do with status ailment ...

The point of using almost all spells IS TO APPLY THE STATUS ALIMENT TO IT! The ones that are most obvious ARE THE ONES WITH HIGHER BASE CRIT CHANCE. Also there simply isn't enough chance to apply aliments in the tree for a legit non-crit spell build to really work. Spells are BALANCED for having crit, everything about spells and the nodes on the tree encourage it.

I suggest you actually try a few crit builds after the 2.0 changes and stop just copying what everyone else said pre 2.0 regarding crit. If the crit effects like aliments and surgeons mods were\are so OP, why is the ladder dominated with builds that don't use them, unlike pre 2.0?

hint

Actually , I took time to re-read myself and yes I sound like crit is > RT when trying to debate if status ailment should be auto-applied on crit

I totally agree that RT is in a better position than crit build because its path of life node/armour right now and crit part of the three seriously lack both but I doubt status ailments should be taken into the equation and removing it from crit would not change that

And to understand were I'm coming from is that at the release of awakening I did an oro sacrifice three dragon build and I struggled shocking some targets with 10%-15% increase chance to shock with a fucking 750 dps fire sword boosted on crack (using fire pen) and was only able to reliably shock by adding innervate

Where now I'm playing a flame surge crit three dragon build and I'm freezing stuff quite often with a mere 11-49 added lighnting damage on spell with herald of thunder

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I totally agree that RT is in a better position than crit build because its path of life node/armour right now and crit part of the three seriously lack both but I doubt status ailments should be taken into the equation and removing it from crit would not change that

So kick em while they are already down? Who cares if spells and crit based characters for the most part are the ones suffering the most in this meta, you want this mod removed regardless because on paper or in the past it was much too powerful.

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And to understand were I'm coming from is that at the release of awakening I did an oro sacrifice three dragon build and I struggled shocking some targets with 10%-15% increase chance to shock with a fucking 750 dps fire sword boosted on crack (using fire pen) and was only able to reliably shock by adding innervate

That just goes to show you the aliment changes they made in 2.0. Not even counting the map mod. I don't think converted damage is working as intended across the board either. Although I can't be for sure as I haven't tested it, doesn't fire pen do nothing if you are using 3 dragons?

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Where now I'm playing a flame surge crit three dragon build and I'm freezing stuff quite often with a mere 11-49 added lighnting damage on spell with herald of thunder

Often, but how long is the duration?

I think you aren't using the mechanics of 3 dragons properly, although don't ask me for advise I've used that helm once.

Another factor that we aren't mentioning here is the "fake" rt builds that are "crit" that use things like vegan dagger (with cannot miss mod) with cyclone and cast on crit. If accuracy wasn't such a big deal then why is this build so popular?

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So kick em while they are already down? Who cares if spells and crit based characters for the most part are the ones suffering the most in this meta, you want this mod removed regardless because on paper or in the past it was much too powerful.

Because status ailment as nothing to do with their current state and I'm confident streamlining between crit and rt should be the way to go

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That just goes to show you the aliment changes they made in 2.0. Not even counting the map mod. I don't think converted damage is working as intended across the board either. Although I can't be for sure as I haven't tested it, doesn't fire pen do nothing if you are using 3 dragons?

Well fire pen is supposed to increase my fire damage thus making my shock duration longer when I do shock.

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Often, but how long is the duration?

I think you aren't using the mechanics of 3 dragons properly, although don't ask me for advise I've used that helm once.

Another factor that we aren't mentioning here is the "fake" rt builds that are "crit" that use things like vegan dagger (with cannot miss mod) with cyclone and cast on crit. If accuracy wasn't such a big deal then why is this build so popular?

Well , the duration is enough for me to notice the shatter and yes I'm not speccing for it, just amazed I can freeze with so low damage because of crit, its a freebee because I did ZERO investment in it.... , I'm using three dragon to shock with fire which works wonder because of crit and i use herald for curse on it

Actually , I don't want to debate which is better between RT and crit aside for status ailment and I'm willing to "inverse" my thinking : maybe the problem is that %chance to ignite/freeze/shock is too low on the three when speccing RT or no crit and should be buffed ?

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Because status ailment as nothing to do with their current state and I'm confident streamlining between crit and rt should be the way to go

You can't be too sure on that. One of its advantages or something the build is suppose to provide being taken away, will make things worst.

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Well fire pen is supposed to increase my fire damage thus making my shock duration longer when I do shock.

TBH I think it mainly just increases the damage, if your goal is to shock with fire damage, chance to shock should be more of a focus then strait doing more damage. 3 dragons is the problem here.

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Well , the duration is enough for me to notice the shatter and yes I'm not speccing for it, just amazed I can freeze with so low damage because of crit, its a freebee because I did ZERO investment in it.... , I'm using three dragon to shock with fire which works wonder because of crit and i use herald for curse on it

Not exactly 0 investment to run a herald, in addition the amount of cold damage on tooltip is basically increased by 50% because you are always shocking. I haven't seen this build personally or know the stats of crit or now, but if spells were in a good place they would have some footing on the ladder, but they don't.

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Actually , I don't want to debate which is better between RT and crit aside for status ailment and I'm willing to "inverse" my thinking : maybe the problem is that %chance to ignite/freeze/shock is too low on the three when speccing RT or no crit and should be buffed ?

RT builds are typically melee builds, do you think melee builds should have such a high chance to apply these aliments? Its nearly impossible to reach across the tree efficiently and grab the nodes to apply an aliment reliably.

So if your concern is apply with attacks, then why not ask for some actually good weapon ele damage nodes with status aliments being able to be applied added to the tree, ele builds right now (aside from windripper) aren't in a good spot. In a related note this would buff ele spectral throw, which was a very popular build dispite sometimes being RT.

I don't think this argument is really worth continuing because even though you acknowledge that the current state of spells\some crit builds aren't in a good spot you don't care because in your mind this is something that should have never been this way, but in my mind its a feature\mechanic that has been this way since day 1.

RT builds aren't suffering ATM if anything they are in the best spot they have been in years, using arguments like there isn't any other way for RT builds to achieve things is kinda the point of builds being different.