Rebalance Crit damage and the mechanics. (RT vs Crit + Poison Arrow)

Surgeons mod on Flask (Recharges 1 Charge When You Deal A Critical Strike) should go! It was mistake from GGG.

As it is now in PoE, you can have the cake and eat it too: Highly likely crits with very high damage. And status ailments as a bonus.
So there seems to be only one solution, to make crit-builds less attractive, either by making all non-crit builds more attractive or by nerfing crit-builds.

I think there some way to balance game around RT vs Crits:
1 - Make chance to hit much harder to increase important of accuracy by a lot then it now + make chance to crit much lower and harder to acquire then now. => Crits are rather unlikely, but high in damage potential
- Change power charges from crit chance to crit multi and extend their duration
- Overall lower the chance to crit. Fast weapons with little damage potential should max out at 20-30%, and their damage range made less variant (to make sure that it counts when a crit comes, and to make them more viable for non-crit builds). Slower, more powerful weapons should max out at considerably less.
- Increase the chances to get crit multis, on the tree.

Why? To make less imbalanced and so mandatory, to make some node more important and some items more useful. With it it will be less hits and less crits per fast attack/cast builds, but strong multiplier and if you crit - you do high damage, then RT builds and get benefits from status effect.

2 - Make Base %Multiplier much lower, JUST FOR EXAMPLE! FOR PURE EXAMPLE!: 105 or 110% base multiplier. => Crits are highly likely, but low in damage potential

It will reduce very high stacking potential for multiplier and make it less Over Powered, i think you can see that right now it almost NO BRAINED at all, when you get so high multiplier from so low investment. It is bad designed.

3 - Make some NEW unique node with very high damage potential and average damage total buff for PURE RT and ONLY melee RT builds ( add melee tag or something to not make it free for all) For example: increased noncrit melee dmg.

This will make same choice and will request more node for RT builds.

4 - Buff RT node, by adding more node after RT or add a line with more damage FOR EXAMPLE! 25-40% more melee damage.
OR line with 40% increased max life + 50 life with melee tag
OR line with 80% more armour + 40% increase effect of Fortify while melee
(Any of those or else percents can variate, it is just example)

That will NOT nerf Crits at all, and all crit build can be OP in late game w/o changing, but RT will be little buffed.

_____

One of those 4 ways (not all together!) will make more balance in game.

_____
_____

Poison Arrow
How PA build work? - You take only the best, worthwhile nodes. But it requires ZERO gear investment. No crit chance, no crit dmg, no accuracy, but you still have dmg mods as legacy crit node and gear. Plus youre RANGED with no requires of attack (only first arrow after you free to dodge any dmg), you have many options to defense and higher life pool, cheaper gear and higher dmg then any other build. Plus PA build have higher MF potential with insane high defense and clear speed.

PA have highest damage potential and in same time easy to acquire that insane over powered damage! Plus it's VERY cheap: ANY white 6 link bow + 1 exalted = +3 lvl Bow 6 linked with IMBA dmg.

PA should be nerfed.

Why no one play Rain of Arrow? Because Poison Arrow can do EVERYTHING as RoA, but CHEAPER + FASTER + MORE AOE + MORE DEFENSE + FREE TO GO (you not stay in same place to do any dmg at all) + BETTER.
Think about it GGG.
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Last edited by TreeOfDead on Oct 10, 2015, 1:59:21 AM
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long story short:

crit has been nerfed REALLY hard some time ago, resulting in 50% dps losses to many crit based chars. currently i don't see any benefit of nerfing it again tbh. i do agree tho that RT could get buffed a bit by either incr. damage or other benefits.

my chars are split 50/50 with either crit or RT base. and as a matter of fact i got a RT char that does nearly the same if not even more dmg than my crit char (which is using mirrored gear).

all comes down to gear in the end.
ig: rokki_xXx
Last edited by rokki82 on Oct 10, 2015, 9:18:38 AM
- Problem is not rt ranged (since they can kite, blink, mirror, whatever super speed ms ranged bow can take), it s RT melee but I don t think inc damage in the solution.

I think RT should have behind crit reduction nods .

-Crit is too powerful. It is so stupid in this game you can have close to 100% crit chances.

Even 50% crit chance is too much and GGG done some weird decision making crit so common on tree.

A max 10% crit should have been the norms but right now i don think GGG got the balls to do it or if they even think crit should be a special thing at all.

Maybe they really like people getting +60% crit chances we don t know, I don t think they ever commented on their view of crit in an ARPG.

Forum pvp
Last edited by lolozori on Oct 13, 2015, 7:22:27 AM
Nerfing crit would mean that suddenly 90% of phys/ele bow builds wouldn't have enough dps for highest maps and toughest endgame content, so no. Imo these days you either go crit or you end up having 10k dps on Split Arrow, less on tornado, and less on other bow skills (obviously that's not a problem if you roll with glyph mark). The problem is not crit being overpowered (because it is not), the problem is non-crit bow not being viable in real dps check content.

"
TreeOfDead wrote:

Why no one play Rain of Arrow? Because Poison Arrow can do EVERYTHING as RoA, but CHEAPER + FASTER + MORE AOE + MORE DEFENSE + FREE TO GO (you not stay in same place to do any dmg at all) + BETTER.
Think about it GGG.


Comparing PA to a skill that is based on phys or elemental scaling and having good weapon is a logical fallacy. These are two different worlds of character building, poison arrow is popular because its dps progression is based only on gems and the tree. But I do agree that it needs some rebalancing, it is gaetting outta control now. Same goes for incinerate and other few chaos "put gems in tabula and trivialize everything" meta builds.

People don't play RoA because it sucks, people don't play RoA because it is weak when compared to other meta bow skills like tornado, SA or LA. Because that is what the true game balance is about - its not about making skill viable (RoA is viable), it is about making that skill a good alternative to other good skills (RoA is not an alternative to SA, the latter will do better in pretty much every situation).
Last edited by raxleberne on Oct 10, 2015, 4:51:11 PM
The current crit mechanics are fun. When crits aren't reasonably consistent(30% for high attack speed, 50+% for lower speeds), your dps becomes less consistent and the game gets a lot more frustrating because sometimes you feel like a fucking god and other times you feel like your weapon's been replaced by a pillow. Crit already requires significant damage investment on the tree and substantially reduces your defensive ability so you should get something worthwhile out of that damage investment.

I'd rather see some buffs to RT, you should be able to bring its damage closer to crit levels with comparable levels of offensive node and gear investment. Something like an attack speed version of the ES nodes behind CI could be good as it would give a nice base multiplier to work with but you'd still have to invest heavily into damage increases if you wanted to bring it up to crit levels.
I am not sure which is the best way to handle this, but to my point of view the biggest problem is that if you want good damage, crit is the way to go for many builds.

I know ggg believes that going for crit should give more damage resulting in less defenses but even if I agreed to this, crit now give MUCH more damage to the point it is unbalanced.

To my view, crit should not be the option that gives you more damage. In other words crit should not be the answer to the question, do I want more damage or defenses.

Crit should be a option of preference. Perhaps it should have some particular benefits when compared to non crit and also some weaknesses. The weakness should not be defenses, it should be something else.

I think the game need to be made so that you can make a build where a crit and non-crit built can result in almost the same offense and defenses.

However even if the above is unrealistic, if ggg wants crit to be more offensive, at least rebalance it so that the difference is not that great.

Crits shouldn't be a valid build option. If you can consistently make an attack/cast that's worth 5 or 6 normal attacks/casts, then what's the point to even go for builds that use normal attacks/casts?

"
rokki82 wrote:
long story short:

crit has been nerfed REALLY hard some time ago, resulting in 50% dps losses to many crit based chars. currently i don't see any benefit of nerfing it again tbh. i do agree tho that RT could get buffed a bit by either incr. damage or other benefits.

my chars are split 50/50 with either crit or RT base. and as a matter of fact i got a RT char that does nearly the same if not even more dmg than my crit char (which is using mirrored gear).

all comes down to gear in the end.


Your crit build must be absolutely horrible.
[s]only mindless sheep think labyrinth is OK to have in PoE.[/s]
okay nevermind labyrinth, fix dx9 blackscreen instead...
I somewhat disagree that having such huge crit relies on such little investment. You really do need quite a bit of investment in crit at the expense of defenses to get reliably high crit. This is not why crit "needs" to be nerfed.

There was a time we ALL should remember that entire mob PACKS could be affected with a reflect aura from a rare mob. These were feared by heavy crit builds and would force some players to forego crit multiplier for more defenses to prevent one-shotting themselves. Now a days, reflect mobs no longer are mobs but single rares and they're really just that...rare. I never ever feel afraid anymore to just go full on crit and obliterate everything. The one reason in the game that would make me question getting crit multi is effectively gone and I don't care to invest in much defenses when everything dies instantly.

There's definitely a balance issue but like what was very truthfully said above, it's not about balancing completely different builds, it's about creating alternatives to equivalent build styles. Right now you can get ridiculously high crit, make a Kinetic blaster and basically one-shot entire rooms of mobs in a party of 6 in a Tier 14 map. That just doesn't seem right that someone can go for that level of crit with no fear for their defenses.

Not saying that there needs to be a nerf to crit or specific builds that use crit, but there needs to be something that makes people make a real decision between damage and safety like their used to be. It's pretty face-roll without reflect packs at the moment.
"
TreeOfDead wrote:
Surgeons mod on Flask (Recharges 1 Charge When You Deal A Critical Strike) should go! It was mistake from GGG.

As it is now in PoE, you can have the cake and eat it too: Highly likely crits with very high damage. And status ailments as a bonus.
So there seems to be only one solution, to make crit-builds less attractive, either by making all non-crit builds more attractive or by nerfing crit-builds.

I think there some way to balance game around RT vs Crits:
1 - Make chance to hit much harder to increase important of accuracy by a lot then it now + make chance to crit much lower and harder to acquire then now. => Crits are rather unlikely, but high in damage potential
- Change power charges from crit chance to crit multi and extend their duration
- Overall lower the chance to crit. Fast weapons with little damage potential should max out at 20-30%, and their damage range made less variant (to make sure that it counts when a crit comes, and to make them more viable for non-crit builds). Slower, more powerful weapons should max out at considerably less.
- Increase the chances to get crit multis, on the tree.

Why? To make less imbalanced and so mandatory, to make some node more important and some items more useful. With it it will be less hits and less crits per fast attack/cast builds, but strong multiplier and if you crit - you do high damage, then RT builds and get benefits from status effect.

2 - Make Base %Multiplier much lower, JUST FOR EXAMPLE! FOR PURE EXAMPLE!: 105 or 110% base multiplier. => Crits are highly likely, but low in damage potential

It will reduce very high stacking potential for multiplier and make it less Over Powered, i think you can see that right now it almost NO BRAINED at all, when you get so high multiplier from so low investment. It is bad designed.

3 - Make some NEW unique node with very high damage potential and average damage total buff for PURE RT and ONLY melee RT builds ( add melee tag or something to not make it free for all) For example: increased noncrit melee dmg.

This will make same choice and will request more node for RT builds.

4 - Buff RT node, by adding more node after RT or add a line with more damage FOR EXAMPLE! 25-40% more melee damage.
OR line with 40% increased max life + 50 life with melee tag
OR line with 80% more armour + 40% increase effect of Fortify while melee
(Any of those or else percents can variate, it is just example)

That will NOT nerf Crits at all, and all crit build can be OP in late game w/o changing, but RT will be little buffed.

_____

One of those 4 ways (not all together!) will make more balance in game.

_____
_____

Poison Arrow
How PA build work? - You take only the best, worthwhile nodes. But it requires ZERO gear investment. No crit chance, no crit dmg, no accuracy, but you still have dmg mods as legacy crit node and gear. Plus youre RANGED with no requires of attack (only first arrow after you free to dodge any dmg), you have many options to defense and higher life pool, cheaper gear and higher dmg then any other build. Plus PA build have higher MF potential with insane high defense and clear speed.

PA have highest damage potential and in same time easy to acquire that insane over powered damage! Plus it's VERY cheap: ANY white 6 link bow + 1 exalted = +3 lvl Bow 6 linked with IMBA dmg.

PA should be nerfed.

Why no one play Rain of Arrow? Because Poison Arrow can do EVERYTHING as RoA, but CHEAPER + FASTER + MORE AOE + MORE DEFENSE + FREE TO GO (you not stay in same place to do any dmg at all) + BETTER.
Think about it GGG.


crit builds are not so strong as you think Since leech has nerfed harshly. Crit builds ahve almost around (approx. speaking) %70 of their tree spend on damage nodes in order to benefit from high damage ~ leech. In return crit builds are glass cannonish, in order to handle 80+ bosses meta, crit builds need really high gear, even you get such a gear, you'll face very hard times vs hard hits.
"You have great power. You're right to be proud. It's unfortunate you have to die now, but I will honor you with 45% of my strength."
elemental ailemts on crit and surgeon mod needs to go, the rest is fine becouse they trade survival for more damage.
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