Feedback and Suggestions - Rebalance Crit damage and the mechanics. (RT vs Crit + Poison Arrow) - Forum

" goetzjam wrote: " My initial problem is that its harder to apply those status ailment as RT, while I started the idea about nerfing it for crit , I also specified that we could apply the inverse logic and make RT able to apply more easily those status with investment which I have no problem with that either.( Presently I think , % chance to status in tree should be improved) I think improvement of non crit aliments won't have that much of a negative as removing it from all sources of crit as its opening up more options and applying aliements already is difficult enough regardless of build. " And we could even do a dichotomy and say that on crit if its a spell it apply the status and if its a physical attack with elemental we don't and it would still cope your logic and arguments about spells. Poe wasn't designed to have artificial limits, if spells have the ability to apply an effect from crit then its only natural that attacks do as well. Poe is a complicated game but making it more complicated in order to ease your mind on the design doesn't actually add anything no matter how you look at it. " So well , I'm very open and try to explore avenue and I have shown it in this discussion as while I was drastic with crit at first , I've shown that the problem might be to buff that part to RT instead Again, suggesting a buff for a playstyle that isn't necessary, for what reason? Because its unfair? Its still possible to reach a chance to apply aliments if you BUILD AROUND IT. " But the only thing you bring down is , its fundamental , its been like that , it should stay like that or well crit and spell are inferior now we should not do that while you have no idea the real impact it has (aside again for spell where I see your point) I bring down the fact the burden of proof for such a large suggestion is on the one suggesting it, not the one defending it. Poe is unique and has a lot of unique mechanics, personally I think crit applying aliments is one of the best designed things in PoE. " So to me you feel really black and white and stuck on your idea on top discrediting my gameplay experience where as I have been open and shown a real case where its unfair and changed my stance somewhat on that premise and willing to explore solutions The fact that you have somewhat changed your stance is indicative that you started with a weak argument to begin with. I've meet you as far as I'm willing to budge, saying that ele nodes in the tree should have more chances to apply aliments, so that if you want to do a non crit aliment build you can, but that means most RT builds won't take those nodes and still won't have access to apply them any easier then before, at least physical damage RT builds. " The balance and change to the game is dynamic, the game evolves, I'm sure GGG is aware of problem with crit/spell build and they will improve it, but I'm not sure status ailment as that much of an impact (aside from spell as I understand your point) So if you have seen the point I've made regarding spells whats left attack, are bow characters really that powerful right now that this is something that should be changed? We all know 1 handed weapons are pretty dogshit. While the game might change in the future to make these better (doubt it) I don't think the game is going to evolve to the point where crit\aliments don't need to work together, if there was ever a time for that it was in the past. Think about some of the builds and how they work, for example a windripper build absolutely couldn't function if you removed the chance to apply aliments on crit. Your suggestion needs to seriously consider everything that is current and know why your suggestion hasn't already been done. Because it ruins too many builds, people aren't playing crit as much because they can't survive, but multiple builds don't function if they can't apply aliments on crit and would require such a large amount of time to rebalance those abilities\items after an unnecessary removal of a mechanic that it would never be worth it. I think if you had taken the time to reply to me like this earlier we would'nt have extended that over 2 pages lol ;) I agree I was drastic over my nerf to status ailment with crit but by arguing with you I refined my thought process and would be perfectly fine if they improved it for non-crit build (assuming you need to invest in it ) so if you choose so you can be on part with crit on this aspect which is lacking on pure elemental non crit build And for me the advantage of crit is more damage so that why ailments is like a freebee. But who knows what are all the impact it could have been if we removed status ailments on crit , yes it could affect survivibility or damage but also it could open possibilities of buffing both spell and crit in a way its not possible right now and we have to take that in consideration and its a reason I was arguing with you on this while I didnt explicitly state it ;) Anyway I think, I have written enough, I'll let other express their opinion :)	Posted by ffogell on Nov 20, 2015, 1:26:59 PM Quote this Post
" ffogell wrote: I think if you had taken the time to reply to me like this earlier we would'nt have extended that over 2 pages lol ;) I agree I was drastic over my nerf to status ailment with crit but by arguing with you I refined my thought process and would be perfectly fine if they improved it for non-crit build (assuming you need to invest in it ) so if you choose so you can be on part with crit on this aspect which is lacking on pure elemental non crit build And for me the advantage of crit is more damage so that why ailments is like a freebee. But who knows what are all the impact it could have been if we removed status ailments on crit , yes it could affect survivibility or damage but also it could open possibilities of buffing both spell and crit in a way its not possible right now and we have to take that in consideration and its a reason I was arguing with you on this while I didnt explicitly state it ;) Anyway I think, I have written enough, I'll let other express their opinion :) I've tried to break it down as simply as possible, I think I did a better job explaining this time though. IMO the reason why you think ailments is a freebie for crit is because other games don't behave like this, well PoE isn't other games. We don't know the full impact of removing it, but builds are enabled around it currently. I'd be open to hear other peoples thoughts as well as it looks like we've come to an understanding. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285 FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF.	Posted by goetzjam on Nov 20, 2015, 2:03:09 PM Quote this Post
Those who say that surgeon's is not broken and crits NOT way powerful with easy access to status ailment - typical liars. They speak an untruth and perfectly aware of this. What I have noticed in the new expansion: Skill tree around Shadow and Ranger looks like buffed (changed pretty hard) while Marauder and Duelist not toughed, so no buffs for melee and RT. New sub classes and new nodes specific for their class have best and most powerful nodes with Ranger, Witch, Shadow. Duelist and Templar not so bad (but weaker). Marauder just very useless and weak, worst one yet, just disappointment. Nothing i have seen will be changed around non crit builds (RT), but crit and Synergy build (Mjölner; cast on crit; others) has nice changes and strong buffs. New expansion have worst position for melee non crit (RT) players with those labyrinths, new boss, new spikes, new crit sub class and other changes. Soon domination Scion, Ranger, Witch and Shadow will be more clear and stronger. Time to domination for crit bow, PA, synergy builds, summoners. Necropolis master craft service Necropolis My IGN TreeOfDead https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2037371 Vouch Necropolis veiled crafting all service all crafts mods Necropolis SC master craft service Necropolis SC craft mod! Veiled crafting Service Necropolis craft PM: TreeOfDead Last edited by TreeOfDead on Nov 21, 2015, 3:45:12 AM	Posted by TreeOfDead on Nov 21, 2015, 1:59:46 AM Quote this Post
" TreeOfDead wrote: Those who say that surgeon's is not broken and crits NOT way powerful with easy access to status ailment - typical liars. They speak an untruth and perfectly aware of this. What I have noticed in the new expansion: Skill tree around Shadow and Ranger looks like buffed (changed pretty hard) while Marauder and Duelist not toughed, so no buffs for melee and RT. New sub classes and new nodes specific for their class have best and most powerful nodes with Ranger, Witch, Shadow. Duelist and Templar not so bad (but weaker). Marauder just very useless and weak, worst one yet, just disappointment. Nothing i have seen will be changed around non crit builds (RT), but crit and Synergy build (Mjölner; cast on crit; others) has nice changes and strong buffs. New expansion have worst position for melee non crit (RT) players with those labyrinths, new boss, new spikes, new crit sub class and other changes. Soon domination Scion, Ranger, Witch and Shadow will be more clear and stronger. Time to domination for crit bow, PA, synergy builds, summoners. Are you really that clueless? Why bother responding if you haven't read the thread. There is no difference between an active surgeons flask and one with another mod, they both provide the same bonuses while active. Status aliments is by design in poe. Why bother responding if you won't address the arguments made here to as why it is the way it is. Calling people liars is just ignorant and shows you lack the knowledge and argument to provide. You claim the duelist is untouched, while one single tree pathing can net you free melee splash with increased aoe and no main target penalty. In the very same tree you can get free unwavering stance while attacking. There are paths for the duelist that has free fortify effect as well as others that have 100% block to spells conversion. So duelist is insane. We only see 1 of the marauder classes. Unrelenting seems really strong, the fact that you can get +1 endurance charge increases surviability by a lot, plus reduced elemental damage when at full endurance charges. So your hared about others having better subclasses when we only know 1 of maruaders which isn't bad its not as flashy as the other classes, but his other subclasses might be. You guys need to stop commenting as if what we see now is all that is going to happen, you have absolutely no idea what will happen to various playstyles when you cant see the whole picture. You say nothing is changed in RT, but again only have access to see 1 of the trees for marauder, which allows for a character to be even more tanky. Or the duelist could go bleed\rt and still have % scaling in parties. Funny enough you are arguing about crit and surgeons being op, but you say this: " Time to domination for crit bow, PA, synergy builds, summoners. Which only 1 of those is crit. And these are pretty much the most popular builds now anyway and they don't use status aliment nor surgeons aside from crit bow, which aside from WR isn't that popular. Next time you think about responding to a thread, instead of raging about stuff you have no clue about read the thread or you make yourself look ignorant. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285 FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF.	Posted by goetzjam on Nov 21, 2015, 1:07:35 PM Quote this Post
Time to dominate meta with crit bows? haha in this game there is no way that i can save myself from reflect with my Lightning Arrow build. I tried everything. 6% leech. Phys to Light + leg coil. Pure Lightning damage. I tried 4l Setup. In that case i die when i get surrounded cause i cant one shot things. Thats the story of crit bow: die to reflect... or die when things get out of control because lack of dps. There are 2 paths. Gear: Spoiler i have 4.8k health with acuity. having 6k would change nothing, cause what kills me is reflect or dying when i get surrounded or stuff like that. what i need is dps so i can kill things while they are offscreen. Its true that when i dont get killed by reflect i have probably the best clear speed in the game. With my build über is no problem, im one of top 5 active pvp players atm. But leveling, pve meta? pain in the ass. Crit bow is poor poe players casual dream, when you start to play it you will realize how unefficient it is and for pve, any crit bow build woulda been last build i go for. "You have great power. You're right to be proud. It's unfortunate you have to die now, but I will honor you with 45% of my strength." Last edited by Rupenus on Nov 22, 2015, 11:55:20 PM	Posted by Rupenus on Nov 22, 2015, 11:48:37 PM Quote this Post
" rokki82 wrote: long story short: crit has been nerfed REALLY hard some time ago, resulting in 50% dps losses to many crit based chars. currently i don't see any benefit of nerfing it again tbh. i do agree tho that RT could get buffed a bit by either incr. damage or other benefits. my chars are split 50/50 with either crit or RT base. and as a matter of fact i got a RT char that does nearly the same if not even more dmg than my crit char (which is using mirrored gear). all comes down to gear in the end. It wasn't enough. There is almost no reason to NOT build for crit if you want to play optimally. Accuracy needs to be punishing which in turn will make RT feel nicer. No one really cares that your RT character deals almost the same as your crit. Its well known that crit can reach hundreds of thousands easily. Its not possible without it. You know this too, you must. In a gear based game, your final statement rings true. However, a crit build with mirror gear will out perform a non crit build with mirror gear and that makes the statement pretty moot.	Posted by Rusery on Nov 23, 2015, 12:41:48 AM Quote this Post
" Rusery wrote: It wasn't enough. There is almost no reason to NOT build for crit if you want to play optimally. Accuracy needs to be punishing which in turn will make RT feel nicer. No one really cares that your RT character deals almost the same as your crit. Its well known that crit can reach hundreds of thousands easily. Its not possible without it. You know this too, you must. In a gear based game, your final statement rings true. However, a crit build with mirror gear will out perform a non crit build with mirror gear and that makes the statement pretty moot. agree and think accuracy as it was and now really useless stat because you get enough of it from dex and monsters have almost no evasion or dodge. and base chance to hit so high that pointless to say you cant play without accuracy when you have it a lot from start. special when you can use any flask all the time without needed to kill someone.	Posted by StrongWitchCraft on Nov 23, 2015, 6:19:26 AM Quote this Post
Lets make a crit build. Take crit,crit,crit crit ,crit crit,crti,crit,crit,crit crit ,crit crit,crticrit,crit,crit crit ,crit crit,crti,crit,crit,crit crit ,crit crit,crti,crit,crit,crit crit ,crit crit,crti. Take Crit multy if you can? Take Acuracy, acuracy,, acuracy,, acuracy,, acuracy. Now wher is the blody damege, attack speed, move speed, defences, life? Base weapon 80-250 damage and 7-9,xx base crit. Lets make RT Take RT !!! Take damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage, damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage, damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage Take life defencest all the fun stuf. Base weapon 300-600 damage Status ailment Now consider your defences as a crit build, can you realy use Hetred aura or added fire or phus to lightning? If you convert damage you leech less mana and life, fire dont do mach and cold cost you a aura and its mor of defence then ofence. Heralds dont do mach becouse on high level cold and lightning damage is miningles to apply status ailment. Even whit dicent sacrifice you will notice that duration of sach buffs is only short and perhaps only noticable on bow users but damage needed to do sach things will overkill target before it run off its duration. Lets face it you can kill trash in many ways so whats left actualy determinate if sach thing is OP or not. Now lets consider what skills you gona use as a crit build and how it effect your actual damage and what links you need to have to actualy benefit from critical chance you so invested in. Its realy not so easy to make balanced build, in theory it may look intresting but in practice you never gona make end game build of sach fantasy becouse its crap. Ther are some OP skils like discharge mostly becouse of its AoE and many mechanic and uniq items making it more then broken but remove just one item from sach builds and they unusable or not realy up to high end content. Its not easy to make a critical melee build whit dicent balance wher is mach easier to make good and balanced RT character not to mention way less invesment. Its easy to cleer trash but when it come to real chalange then you see how good the build is or not, keep in minde that cleer speed is pure mechanical thing. Last edited by nEVER_BoRN on Nov 23, 2015, 8:44:18 AM	Posted by nEVER_BoRN on Nov 23, 2015, 8:42:19 AM Quote this Post
" nEVER_BoRN wrote: Lets make a crit build. Take crit,crit,crit crit ,crit crit,crti,crit,crit,crit crit ,crit crit,crticrit,crit,crit crit ,crit crit,crti,crit,crit,crit crit ,crit crit,crti,crit,crit,crit crit ,crit crit,crti. Take Crit multy if you can? Take Acuracy, acuracy,, acuracy,, acuracy,, acuracy. Now wher is the blody damege, attack speed, move speed, defences, life? Base weapon 80-250 damage and 7-9,xx base crit. Lets make RT Take RT !!! Take damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage, damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage, damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage,damage Take life defencest all the fun stuf. Base weapon 300-600 damage Just saying, i don't expect any logical or close to reality "build", just presentation what exaggeration are. Thank god you aren't a developer. Peace, -Boem-	Posted by StrongWitchCraft on Nov 23, 2015, 2:00:38 PM Quote this Post
" Rusery wrote: " rokki82 wrote: long story short: crit has been nerfed REALLY hard some time ago, resulting in 50% dps losses to many crit based chars. currently i don't see any benefit of nerfing it again tbh. i do agree tho that RT could get buffed a bit by either incr. damage or other benefits. my chars are split 50/50 with either crit or RT base. and as a matter of fact i got a RT char that does nearly the same if not even more dmg than my crit char (which is using mirrored gear). all comes down to gear in the end. It wasn't enough. There is almost no reason to NOT build for crit if you want to play optimally. Accuracy needs to be punishing which in turn will make RT feel nicer. No one really cares that your RT character deals almost the same as your crit. Its well known that crit can reach hundreds of thousands easily. Its not possible without it. You know this too, you must. In a gear based game, your final statement rings true. However, a crit build with mirror gear will out perform a non crit build with mirror gear and that makes the statement pretty moot. have you ever tried using a crit build with high gear or with budget gear? A friend of mine has 11.5K health 75K RT cyclone char. Full mirrored. Nothing can kill him in this game. He is yolo'ing all around the maps, he can facetank everything, can do any mods, can do anything in this game. RT is about stacking defence, with crit build base you cant stack defences, you gotta have a fragile character to be able to do crit strikes DPS is not everything. DPS plays really small part in this game after leech changes. "You have great power. You're right to be proud. It's unfortunate you have to die now, but I will honor you with 45% of my strength."	Posted by Rupenus on Nov 23, 2015, 2:25:33 PM Quote this Post