Rebalance Crit damage and the mechanics. (RT vs Crit + Poison Arrow)

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Rupenus wrote:

People who are lazy to farm, and have bad gear watching 1.2 patch videos of crit builds, and since they never tried a crit based build, they think crit builds are OP and RT builds are weak.

This is what is going on in this thread.

Crit builds are fragile. Very fragile. RT builds is all about defense stacking. RT vs Crit is like apples vs pineapples. Surgeon flasks and other shit mean nothing when you get one shotted. And even with 6k life, that happens a lot. a RT weapon can have 887 pdps, while loath bane has 530 pdps. you gotta spend a looot passive points on tree to make a crit build work, and you end up beeing very fragile to have a decent crit mechanic going on with your build.

Crit builds are having really bad time in high end game content currently. While RT builds are, especially RT cyclone is best choice to kill lvl 81+ bosses. Along with PA.

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Well the basic difference btw you and me goat is that you are basing your argument with the current balance while I assume balance will change and caster/coc survivility will probability be improved in the future

That is why i'm not considering the "current balance" as a valid argument that prevent a change in status ailement, I'm looking at a bigger picture tossing aside current balance because I know it will change...

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goetzjam wrote:

Even previous balance where crit was THE WAY to play literally everything these things were not changed. So even if crit was in a better spot it still doesn't justify the removal of these mechanics.

Seriously anyone that thinks surgeons is OP clearly doesn't understand there is 0 difference between a flask that is active with surgeon mod and one that is active without. The very best boss killers in this game ATM are builds that DONT EVEN USE CRIT.

Status ailment isn't something RT builds should easily be able to apply. Its a design mechanic of the game, especially for spells.

Again, nothing you've presented is different then any other crit argument in the past, like I said its clear you haven't played a crit build recently and its clear you don't understand the differences.

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I could agree status ailment applying on crit is for spell but why it should be a freebee for crit and not rt , elemental RT needs it as much as any crit build.

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A fix would be to add more chance to apply those status as RT. Why should physical crit build with elemental damage as it free while as elemental RT even speccing for it is subpar ? it is fair ?

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Again we ALL KNOW CRIT AND SPELL SURVIVIBILITY SUCK RIGHT NOW and it has nothing to do with surgeon or status ailment , saying it should not changed because RT is better than spell/crit right now is so narrow minded , can we look at a bigger picture :P ?

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But if accuracy isn't an issue like you said why are you going RT as ele and not just getting 3 accuracy nodes? Ele RT can be improved without removing the mechanic from others.

Part of the downside of going RT IMO is not applying aliments easily. In return you don't have to worry about accuracy and crit chance. Again I think part of the "fix" could be so ele attack builds have a better way to apply aliments, regardless of crit\rt.

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Can you look at the bigger picture? Obviously not because you still won't accept the difference in surgeons mod, even though you admit most boss kills should be done in less then 1 flask rotation.

Its a fundamental mechanic that shouldn't just change because you think it should. Again its pointless to argue with you as you obviously can't be convinced of any other then what you have your mind set on, dispute you not having any relative experience on the topic.

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Who said the downside to RT was not to apply ailments easily, you are insinuating it, while the text say the downside is no crits ;)

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I mean its not because something is given that we can't challenge it or re-think it no ?

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- it should not be changed because RT is superior to Crit/spell and so ? it has nothing to do with surgeon or status ailment its about survivibility...

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And I'm willing to let aside the surgeon stuff because I have less experience with it than with status ailment... (even though I think its a no brianer for all crit build)

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In the end I don't mind if you don't agree , I think I argued more with you because you seem stuck to the current game state with somewhat a sheep mentality while I'm more of a visionary and I was looking at a bigger picture setting aside the current survivibility problem crit/spell has because I know this is going to be improved and it has nothing to do with status ailment.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Who said the downside to RT was not to apply ailments easily, you are insinuating it, while the text say the downside is no crits ;)

Because that is the function of crit vs RT and has been since day 1.

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I mean its not because something is given that we can't challenge it or re-think it no ?

It means you must have a compelling argument and one that just isn't a rehash of the one used from a year plus ago, when the game was crit or GTFO.

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- it should not be changed because RT is superior to Crit/spell and so ? it has nothing to do with surgeon or status ailment its about survivibility...

But it does, part of the survive-ability of cold damage builds, especially spells is the ability to freeze, thats why freezing pulse was THE GO TO build for people for the longest time. The downside of lightning damage is it has a very high range, which is madeup for by the ability to shock. Fire does average damage, but part of adding more depth to the spell (actually the only depth to the spell) is by allowing it to ignite.

Again you haven't made a compelling argument for a change other then RT builds don't have as easy access to apply this function even though that is the way it was designed to be.

Look at it this way, removing strengths these builds have and allowing an already popular and strong playstyle to have easier access to apply these things just increases powercreep and nerfs an already dumpster playstyle.

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And I'm willing to let aside the surgeon stuff because I have less experience with it than with status ailment... (even though I think its a no brianer for all crit build)

Even though it isn't if you don't just rofl your face on the keyboard or if your crit chance isn't high enough to fully abuse it anyway. The main issue is there is only 4 prefixes that affect utility flask.

I brought you a real experience case about pure elemental build using RT while I'm playing a spell crit build right now and you are saying I dont have relative experiences ... ?!?!?! While you are bringing argument about current game balance without thinking or acknowledging that the game evolve and change thus what was right before might not be right now

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In the end I don't mind if you don't agree , I think I argued more with you because you seem stuck to the current game state with somewhat a sheep mentality while I'm more of a visionary and I was looking at a bigger picture setting aside the current survivibility problem crit/spell has because I know this is going to be improved and it has nothing to do with status ailment.

I'm the one that has a sheep mentality when you are the one using the same argument from the multipage thread 6 months or a year ago. You aren't a visionary or bigger picture viewer when you clearly are just dismissing the downsides of your suggestions without any actual though to them. No matter how you look at it allowing for RT builds to apply status aliments without much investment increases the power of those builds, removing the aliment chance from crit, removes the ability for ALL spells to function correctly, you dismiss that as if they were going to re-balance every single spell accordingly, that simply isn't going to happen just because you want to remove a mechanic that is fundamental to PoE's unique design.

Even improving surviability for spells\crit doesn't fix the other issues if you remove a mechanic they've had since day 1, you are too ignorant to see that and further discussion with you have proven that and proven pointless.

Spoiler

(how could someone that barely has any endgame experience have any "valid" assessment of a bigger picture, what a joke)

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My initial problem is that its harder to apply those status ailment as RT, while I started the idea about nerfing it for crit , I also specified that we could apply the inverse logic and make RT able to apply more easily those status with investment which I have no problem with that either.( Presently I think , % chance to status in tree should be improved)

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And we could even do a dichotomy and say that on crit if its a spell it apply the status and if its a physical attack with elemental we don't and it would still cope your logic and arguments about spells.

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So well , I'm very open and try to explore avenue and I have shown it in this discussion as while I was drastic with crit at first , I've shown that the problem might be to buff that part to RT instead

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But the only thing you bring down is , its fundamental , its been like that , it should stay like that or well crit and spell are inferior now we should not do that while you have no idea the real impact it has (aside again for spell where I see your point)

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So to me you feel really black and white and stuck on your idea on top discrediting my gameplay experience where as I have been open and shown a real case where its unfair and changed my stance somewhat on that premise and willing to explore solutions

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The balance and change to the game is dynamic, the game evolves, I'm sure GGG is aware of problem with crit/spell build and they will improve it, but I'm not sure status ailment as that much of an impact (aside from spell as I understand your point)